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  #1  
Old 12-07-2008, 10:05 AM
Pilottonny Pilottonny is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 645
Thumbs up FWF-Insulation glue !

Yesterday I cut all the various pieces of firewall insulation and ?seemed? them with aluminum tape. It is the kind of insulation, approx 3/16 thick, with an aluminum foil on each side. I tried to get some high-temp glue, but the stuff I was after, is not readily available here in Belgium. So I got some clear ? Poly Max?, a polymer sealer/glue from ?Bison?, from our local DIY.

It said on the cartridge that it would keep its normal strength up to a continuous 100?C (212 ?F). I am not sure how hot the Firewall gets, but I put a sample of the insulation, glued to a piece of stainless steel in the oven, with the following results:

10 min. @ 100 ?C: (212 ?F) No problem!
10 min. @ 125 ?C: (257 ?F) No problem!
10 min. @ 150 ?C: (302 ?F) No problem!
10 min. @ 200 ?C: (392 ?F) No problem!
20 min. @ 200 ?C: (392 ?F) No problem!
10 min. @ 250 ?C: (482 ?F) No problem!

? No problem? means I could not rip the insulation of the stainless steel without damaging it. Also the aluminium tape kept sticking real good! Unfortunately our oven does not get higher than 250?, but I am pretty sure that the Firewall will not get that hot in normal working conditions.

It is good to know that the Insulation will also help to keep the heat out in case of a FWF-fire (and that the insulation will stay on even when it gets quite hot)

Regards, Tonny.
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Tonny Tromp
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  #2  
Old 12-07-2008, 12:18 PM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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<<10 min. @ 250 ?C: (482 ?F) No problem!>>

Tonny, I compliment you for testing before moving ahead. However, the firewall standard is 1093C (2000F).

I've done some experiments with a firewall burn rig. The metal faced insulation you're using is conceptually a good idea. If you can keep it in place, I would expect a heat target 6" behind the firewall (think of your toes) to not get warmer than about 200F with a 2000F firewall, even after 5 minutes or so. Without the barrier the heat target reaches 200F in about 20 seconds.

The barrier won't do you any good if it falls off the firewall....and it will at 2000F if glued. Consider mechanical attachment. I'd suggest aluminum sheet "L" clips pop-riveted to the firewall angles.
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  #3  
Old 12-07-2008, 09:31 PM
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hydroguy2 hydroguy2 is offline
 
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Location: Townsend, Montana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
<<10 min. @ 250 °C: (482 °F) .....The barrier won't do you any good if it falls off the firewall....and it will at 2000F if glued. Consider mechanical attachment. I'd suggest aluminum sheet "L" clips pop-riveted to the firewall angles.
this way it won't fall off until ~1220*F, when the AL clips fail
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  #4  
Old 12-07-2008, 09:37 PM
szicree szicree is offline
 
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I was under the impression that the oven test was to determine if the insulation would stay put during normal ops, not during an engine fire. I wasn't planning on sticking anything to the firewall in the interest of weight and simplicity, but that 20 second figure has got me googling the web for some asbestos sneakers!
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  #5  
Old 12-08-2008, 05:14 AM
Pilottonny Pilottonny is offline
 
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Default Insulation for normal operating temperatures!

Dan,
That is an impressive figure you mention: 200 ?F in 20 seconds! It must be quite a fire, I guess, and very close to the firewall. I will be more worried about the cowling and windshield going up in flames and right in my face, than the 200? F at my toes (same temperature in the sauna).
For sealing the firewall penetrations, etc. I will obviously use the 2000 ?F sealant.

Steve,
Exactly, the idea was to insulate against heat (in the summer) and noise in normal operting conditions. If the insulation sticks on, in case of a fire, even if it is only for an additional 30 seconds, that is still 30 seconds more than with no insulation at all (which most have).
The weight penalty is only 600 gr. (1,3 lb) plus glue. To me that is acceptable for the extra comfort and (minor) safety.

Thanks for your imput, regards, Tonny.
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  #6  
Old 12-08-2008, 07:39 AM
szicree szicree is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilottonny View Post
I will be more worried about the cowling and windshield going up in flames and right in my face, than the 200? F at my toes (same temperature in the sauna).
Those Belgians must have some pretty serious saunas! Do they throw a few ears of corn in there with you?
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  #7  
Old 12-08-2008, 11:41 AM
Pilottonny Pilottonny is offline
 
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Wink Up to 212?F!

100?C is quite a common sauna temperature! (212?F). Just an example link that came up first when googled: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/HimtangWong.shtml

Anyway, 100?C is certainly survivable as long as it is not direct contact.

Lets hope we will never have to test it!

Regards, Tonny.
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"Pilottonny"
Tonny Tromp
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RV9A, Registration: PH-VAN
ECI-Titan IOX-320 with dual EI, turning a Whirlwind 200RV CS prop.
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  #8  
Old 12-08-2008, 02:24 PM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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<<this way it won't fall off until ~1220*F, when the AL clips fail>>

Well, actually, a future burn test with a pseudo-Vans firewall (stainless sheet with aluminum angle ribs) is on the curiosity list. It is entirely possible the aluminum firewall rivets will fail but the angles will survive. The stainless sheet wrinkles up a lot, meaning when the rivets fail there is little or no surface contact between the sheet and the angles to conduct heat. The game becomes a question of how much radiated energy the angles absorb vs how much they re-radiate and/or conduct to air. My bet is that they don't reach melt point because only one face is parallel with the glowing firewall, while two faces are perpendicular and one faces away.

<<It must be quite a fire, I guess, and very close to the firewall.>>

An ordinary propane weed burner will heat an 8" dia area of firewall stainless to glowing red in a few seconds. I calibrate for 2000F with a sheet of copper foil. FAR 23.1191 tests only require a 10"x10" firewall material sample with a 5"x5" hot spot, so yes, an 8" hot spot is a bit larger than the standard.

<<the idea was to insulate against heat (in the summer) and noise in normal operating conditions. >>

Oh, I understand. Still, you might want to try the glue on a section of red hot metal just to see how much smoke and/or flame you get.

In the event of an engine fire, the three issues are smoke in the cockpit (breathing difficulty), how much pain (read radiated heat) the pilot can stand before he loses control, and ignition of flamable materials on the cockpit side of the firewall.
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  #9  
Old 12-08-2008, 06:35 PM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Tonny, BTW, what brand of insulation are you using? Foil on both sides, only 3/16" thick, and 1.3 lbs sounds good.
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  #10  
Old 12-08-2008, 06:55 PM
mlwynn mlwynn is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Ramon, CA
Posts: 410
Default Where and how the firewall insulation?

I have thought about firewall insulation and am at the spot where it ought to be done. I was primarily thinking about keeping the cabin cooler during summer operations. Somehow, I thought the insulation was supposed to be on the cabin side of the firewall. But with all stuff being attached to both sides of the firewall, I am not sure where, how thick and how to attach. What have others done?

Regards,

Michael Wynn
RV 8 FWF
San Ramon, CA
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