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RV10 Laser Cut issues for current builders

S

Sallcock

Member
All

I am a relative newbie to this community and I received my empennage kit from Vans in July 2022. I started work in September 2022 on the kit and I am just finishing it off a year later - I am one of the (unlucky) people who received an email from Vans yesterday stating that there may be a reason to replace many different parts of my newly built empennage. I have looked through the list of parts for the RV10 and its a lot of work to break down the elevator / rudder / H&V stabilisers plus the actual fuselage itself

The recommendations fall into two parts

Replacement Recommended or Acceptable for use

After looking at the lists for the RV10 I am concerned that to replace the recommended parts for the empennage kit will not only require another extensive period of time but also will require me to disassemble the work done and probably end up with damage to the skins etc in the process.

I have raised my concerns with Vans via email and thus far have not heard back from them, I think that its probably better to obtain a new empennage and build it from scratch and I have suggested that to them.

I didn't notice any issues when assembling the empennage and certainly didn't notice any of the examples shown in the guide to the identification of parts that may be affected by this laser cutting debacle - links to all below.

So my question is - how many others have been affected by this and what's your take on how you want to resolve this

I am very sad that this has happened for myself and other builders too, it certainly is a huge setback for Vans themselves, however its going to take another year out of my life getting this resolved and I am not confident that pulling it all apart to replace the parts will result in a better product than just starting again with new parts that don't have this issue.

Does anyone else have a view on this ?

Parts Identification

https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-con...unched-Part-Identification-Key-with-edits.pdf

Engineering assessment document

https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-con...er-Cut-Parts-Engineering-Evaluation-R11.3.pdf

Laser cut parts list by model

https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Laser-Cut-Part-List-R5.2.pdf
 
Are you sure you have LCP's?

Sallcock said:
All

Does anyone else have a view on this ?

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Looking at your received date you need to insure you have LCP's. Between existing inventory and LCP ramp-up there could be less than you think. Check your date codes and pics. Find a more experienced builder and get their opinion. If you do find your empennage is loaded with LCP's I would think of starting over learning from your existing build. It's a difficult pill to swallow but the cost of a new empennage is less than 3% of your total build cost will eventually be.

Good luck !!
 
Sallcock said:
Thanks for that - I will switch to that - appreciate your steer
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Actually, you might not want to do that. Doug has just said that he's going to close that thread and start separate ones for people to discuss aircraft-specific issues regarding LCP. This thread looks like it would be a good start for the RV-10's.
 
That's a valid point - I will search for the new threads you're suggesting and then create this for the 10

Thanks for pointing it out
 
dmattmul said:
Looking at your received date you need to insure you have LCP's. Between existing inventory and LCP ramp-up there could be less than you think. Check your date codes and pics. Find a more experienced builder and get their opinion. If you do find your empennage is loaded with LCP's I would think of starting over learning from your existing build. It's a difficult pill to swallow but the cost of a new empennage is less than 3% of your total build cost will eventually be.

Good luck !!
Click to expand...


Thanks for this - I think you're right and the only issue beyond the time to do it is the costs involved - we will see how that goes with Vans as I don't want to run them into the ground for all the right reasons but I also don't want them to make me fiscally responsible for the poor decisions on manufacturing they made

Time will tell
 
I have all 4 subkits already on the ground in the hangar, but only recently got around to start working on them. I have a total of 113 LCP's that I have elected to replace. I'll keep the parts in the "green" category but I do not have a "warm-fuzzy" feeling about the LCP's in even the very lightly loaded "blue" category. There are already too many SB's that have come out for cracking later, with perfectly good punched parts, for me to take any further chances with LCP's. I'm fortunate that I don't have any LCP's already built into structure - staying busy on other projects actually worked in my favor this time.
 
Spot on

airguy said:
I have all 4 subkits already on the ground in the hangar, but only recently got around to start working on them. I have a total of 113 LCP's that I have elected to replace. I'll keep the parts in the "green" category but I do not have a "warm-fuzzy" feeling about the LCP's in even the very lightly loaded "blue" category. There are already too many SB's that have come out for cracking later, with perfectly good punched parts, for me to take any further chances with LCP's. I'm fortunate that I don't have any LCP's already built into structure - staying busy on other projects actually worked in my favor this time.
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I think Greg has this stated for a lot of us perfectly. (Including me) Vans engineers these airframes to a fairly conservative aspect (I've been told in excess of 50%) and yet we see unexplained cracks showing up in SB's for skins and structural parts. When I fly in cruise my feet are on the floor, and I can feel the rhythmic vibration which I think is the prop generating impulses along the bottom of the fuselage from my 390 with 4 of the larger jugs in the fleet. Can the Vans engineers really account for this? (OK, that is rhetorical) When I clean the bottom of the fuselage, I'm always looking for cracks. (My paranoia I realize) For me I would also not use LCP's in anything except maybe the green column.
 
Why wouldn't anyone with unassembled sections not replace all LCP parts? No doubt if you every sell your plane that is going to be the first question asked by the buyer. Such a low added cost at that point.

For everyone further along, I feel for you. That is a hard pill to swallow. Personally, I would rebuild from scratch any sections that contain LCP parts and throw the original in the junk bin. I would not want to spend my life worrying about what could happen down the road, no doubt in my mind that there will be many SB in the future for builders who used LCP parts.
 
Strikhedonia said:
Why wouldn't anyone with unassembled sections not replace all LCP parts? No doubt if you every sell your plane that is going to be the first question asked by the buyer. Such a low added cost at that point.
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That's a valid point, and you got me to thinking about it, so I went back and reviewed my inventory again for LCP and category. I had only 3 parts in the "green" category on my wing kit, and right at a dozen in the fuse kit. The dollar value to be completely "LCP clean" is pretty minimal, and I think I may agree with you that the resale label "no LCP" may be worth significantly more than the dollar value of the parts in this case, regardless of whether or not the parts really NEED to be replaced. Perception is everything, and in the used airplane market everything is perception.
 
Were your "greens" always laser cut?

Replacing parts in the "green" category might make sense from a resale value perspective, but I read in an early update from Van's that a lot of these 'no stress' parts were always laser cut even before this issue arose, and would continue to be so. This means that even if you ordered "green" parts you might well get laser cut replacements.

Here's the text from the July 4 update:
"All parts that were manufactured starting in early 2022 utilizing the laser cutting process are now being produced on CNC punch press machines, as they were historically. We are no longer shipping any of those laser-cut parts. A smaller number of non-dimpled parts that have always been laser cut and have never been an issue are still being manufactured that way."

Considering this, does it even make sense to order "green" parts?
 
I assume that if the part was always laser cut and will always be laser cut going forward, it wouldn't be on the list for us to replace.

All but one of the parts in my tail kit that could be laser-cut were for me. I was lucky not to have begun assembly at all - so it's much easier for me to replace them than most.

I have quickbuild wings and a fuselage delivering sometime later October to Janurary. I am thinking I'll probably be starting on one of those instead of the tail, simply because of the timelines that we'll probably have to get the replacement parts.

I'm confident it'll all work out in the end though, and we'll all have great aircraft to show for our effort. Hang in there!
 
Strikhedonia said:
Why wouldn't anyone with unassembled sections not replace all LCP parts? No doubt if you every sell your plane that is going to be the first question asked by the buyer. Such a low added cost at that point.

For everyone further along, I feel for you. That is a hard pill to swallow. Personally, I would rebuild from scratch any sections that contain LCP parts and throw the original in the junk bin. I would not want to spend my life worrying about what could happen down the road, no doubt in my mind that there will be many SB in the future for builders who used LCP parts.
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You realize that there are other laser cut parts that have been used in the past, right?
 
rocketman1988 said:
You realize that there are other laser cut parts that have been used in the past, right?
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Sorry, I thought it would be understood I only meant parts from the new laser vendor who apparently was not educated on how to program their machines. The laser cut parts on my build did not have notches or burn marks, nor where any dimpled parts laser cut.
 
Roger that

Strikhedonia said:
Sorry, I thought it would be understood I only meant parts from the new laser vendor who apparently was not educated on how to program their machines. The laser cut parts on my build did not have notches or burn marks, nor where any dimpled parts laser cut.
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Thanks for the clarification. It seems that there are some here that have determined that there will be NO laser cut parts in their build without realizing that it is more a vendor problem than a process problem…
 
on my RV10 wings.... the laser cut parts I have (my wing ribs have 70% LCP ribs). Completed except for bottom skins and ZipTips.

I DO NOT SEE ANY CRACKING WHATSOEVER! PERHAPS I AM ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES THAT HAVE NO CRACKING DUE TO THE LASER PARTS BEING PRODUCED BY ONE OF THE BETTER COMPANIES??!?!

I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR OTHER PEOPLE'S THOUGHTS ON THIS??!!!
 
jerseypilot83 said:
on my RV10 wings.... the laser cut parts I have (my wing ribs have 70% LCP ribs). Completed except for bottom skins and ZipTips.

I DO NOT SEE ANY CRACKING WHATSOEVER! PERHAPS I AM ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES THAT HAVE NO CRACKING DUE TO THE LASER PARTS BEING PRODUCED BY ONE OF THE BETTER COMPANIES??!?!

I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR OTHER PEOPLE'S THOUGHTS ON THIS??!!!
Click to expand...

A lot of people have mentioned not being able to see the cracks with rivets installed. I would pick 10-20 rivets that are easily accessible on different structures and drill them out and carefully look for cracks on those dimples. If no cracks found, great, re-rivet and move on (still replace “red and yellow” items on Vans replace list). But if you find cracked dimples you know you have to continue drilling out more to truly assess the situation.
Just my .02 on the matter.

Regards,
Zach
 
I guess I have two questions on all of this:

(1). Vans says one of the steps is to visually inspect the parts to see if they are punched or LCP. They show scorch marks from the laser and the serrated edges from the holes if you have LCPs. Has anyone been able to see those marks without a microscope or high end magnifying glass?

(2). Is it possible some of these cracks are the result of not deburring the holes, even if they are drilled to final size? May be a dumb question but I debur every hole, as they all seem to have a slight sharp edge from the construction process.
 
Rick RV-4 said:
I guess I have two questions on all of this:

(1). Vans says one of the steps is to visually inspect the parts to see if they are punched or LCP. They show scorch marks from the laser and the serrated edges from the holes if you have LCPs. Has anyone been able to see those marks without a microscope or high end magnifying glass?



(2). Is it possible some of these cracks are the result of not deburring the holes, even if they are drilled to final size? May be a dumb question but I debur every hole, as they all seem to have a slight sharp edge from the construction process.
Click to expand...

1.) Yes. You can see the irregular hole without a magnifier. Lot of times there is a scorch mark. (from anomalous LCP vendor)

But if you DO use a magnifier don't go higher than say 7X. Else you will even be concerned looking at a CNC punched hole, and using a brewery yeast cell counting microscope will certainly really elevate your heart rate on any cut metal.


2.) I would agree. But more failures are seen from lack of deburring along corners, i.e. ribs - flange
 
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