VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.


Go Back   VAF Forums > Model Specific > RV-7/7A
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-24-2019, 09:16 PM
RV701775 RV701775 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 95
Default Rudder Stiffener Rivets - Drill Out?

I finished setting the AN426AD3-3 rivets on that holed the rudder stiffeners to the skin. I did the math and these rivets area almost exactly the correct length for a 1.5 diameter head. About six of my rivets fit in my cleaveland rivet gauge tightly, but are not significantly over driven. The issue is that on one side the rivet may be 0.033in height and on the other side the head height may be 0.045+. The rivet looks acceptable except for on side of a head is a bit short.

Should I drill these rivets out or is it acceptable to have one side below the Mil-R-47196A minimum head height of 0.038in for a -3 rivet? Not sure how much this matters on the stiffeners.

https://eaabuilderslog.org/?blprojec...=7YL1dRvO9&add
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-24-2019, 09:33 PM
Girraf Girraf is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 204
Default

May be strange coming from another user who just today asked a similar question albeit for blind rivets......but I wouldn't even think twice here. Those look more than adequate. There will be so many more rivets in your future that you'll never be able to measure as precisely and have to rely on just a visual inspection or by touch only to determine acceptability.

In the course of building, I often repeat two mantras, both from Vans.

1. Your building a tractor with hand tools in your garage, not an F-22. (also rephrased often as "Your building an airplane, not a watch)

2. More problems have been created than ever solved by drilling out rivets.

I found it helpful to carefully examine other RVs and aluminum planes to create my own basis for workmanship that clearly was acceptable for flying aircraft.
__________________
Vintage Cherokee 160
RV-7:
Empennage complete
SB Wings to QB stage
Fuselage in progress
Finish kit/Engine/Prop Ordered
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-25-2019, 09:31 AM
iwannarv iwannarv is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Olathe, KS
Posts: 479
Default

Take note, work on driving square, and build on!
__________________
Brad Brensing
RV-10 Emp/Tailcone - Complete, QB Wings - Complete, Fuse - Building, Finish Kit - May '21
Never judge a man by his trim tabs.

Last edited by iwannarv : 11-26-2019 at 08:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-26-2019, 11:04 AM
sblack sblack is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,520
Default

yes agree with the others. they are fine. Work to improve, but if you drill them out you will elongate the holes and make a mess. These are structurally sound.
__________________
Scott Black
Old school simple VFR RV 4, O-320, wood prop, MGL iEfis Lite
VAF dues 2020
Instagram @sblack2154
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-26-2019, 08:39 PM
RV701775 RV701775 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 95
Default

One issue I noted is that the dimples on the stiffener are slightly tipped inward. I believe this is due to the proximity of the bend in the stiffener. I also tried using a dimple die that was ground down on one side and did not see much improvement. I believe this tilt in the dimple may be why, that although the rivet is set straight, the outer side of the shop head is shorter than the inside side.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-26-2019, 11:10 PM
rvbuilder2002's Avatar
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,662
Default

Review Section 5 in the construction manual regarding shop heads on rivets.
Pay particular attention to the Referenced MIL Spec for rivets. The minimum and maximum shop head size is much broader than "Must be exactly .5D thick and 1.5D in diameter.

Something else to keep in mind.....
With the experience level that most people are at when building the empenage, 9 times out of 10 if a removal is done, the rivet hole will get messed up and the second installation attempt will be even worse than the first.

I'm not saying that a rivet should never be removed. Just don't do it without serious contemplation. Especially early in the project with a lower skill level.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Hubbard, Oregon
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
FAA/DAR
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-27-2019, 05:33 AM
mturnerb mturnerb is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ponte Vedra, FL
Posts: 1,606
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
Review Section 5 in the construction manual regarding shop heads on rivets.
Pay particular attention to the Referenced MIL Spec for rivets. The minimum and maximum shop head size is much broader than "Must be exactly .5D thick and 1.5D in diameter.

Something else to keep in mind.....
With the experience level that most people are at when building the empenage, 9 times out of 10 if a removal is done, the rivet hole will get messed up and the second installation attempt will be even worse than the first.

I'm not saying that a rivet should never be removed. Just don't do it without serious contemplation. Especially early in the project with a lower skill level.

Experience is helpful here for sure - you start to get a feel for which rivets look "right". I find this part of Section 5 particularly useful in this regard:

"One of the common calls we get is "I had to drill out a bad rivet and now the hole is oversize. What do I do?" Sometimes this is done multiple times in the same hole and now the hole is so large that the builder has to use a bolt and nut instead of a rivet. To relieve the anxiety sometimes associated with an imperfectly set rivet and to avert potential problems arising from ill-advised attempts at repair, (not to say 'never repair a rivet'), guidance in the form of an excerpt from the Alcoa Aluminum Rivet Book, dated 1984, is provided here.


"The standards to which driven rivets should conform are frequently uncertain. In addition to dimensions and perfection of shape, inspection is concerned with whether the drive head is coaxial with the shank (not "clinched") and whether there is excessive cracking of the heads. It has been determined that even badly cracked heads are satisfactory from the standpoint of static strength, fatigue strength and resistance to corrosion. (Poorly set and cracked) rivet
heads were tested in tension to determine how well formed a head has to be in order to develop full strength. The tensile strengths of all the rivets were within five percent of the strongest. The test indicated that minor deviations from the theoretically desired shape of head are not cause for concern or replacement. The second rivet that is driven in any one hole [is] likely to be more defective than the first because the hole is enlarged and [the] rivet will be more likely to buckle and form an imperfect head. Tests have shown that very small rivet heads are sufficient to develop the strength of the rivet shank, even when the rivets are subject to a straight tensile pull....where a large head is not needed for appearance, smaller sizes of drive head should be used to decrease the required driving pressures."
__________________
Turner Billingsley

RV-14A built/sold N14VB
RV-12iS in progress as of October 2020
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-27-2019, 10:16 AM
RV701775 RV701775 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 95
Default

One side of the rivet heads is below the 0.038in min thickness in listed in the mil-spec and the 0.5 dia thickness. So what I am trying to say is that they were also below the mil-spec on one side (i.e. 0.033in head thickness). The only way I can think to fix this is to increase rivet size
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-27-2019, 12:41 PM
wirejock's Avatar
wirejock wirejock is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Estes Park, CO
Posts: 4,769
Default Rivet length

I know the plans call for a certain length but I always measure and use a length that yields a Mil Spec shop head. Never used any of the 3-3s.
__________________
Larry Larson
Estes Park, CO
wirejock at yahoo dot com
Donated 12/01/2021, plus a little extra.
RV-7A #73391, N511RV reserved (3,000+ hours)
Empennage, wings, fuse, finishing kit done. Working FWF
Disclaimer
I cannot be, nor will I be, held responsible if you try to do the same things I do and it does not work and/or causes you loss, injury, or even death in the process.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-27-2019, 04:32 PM
rvbuilder2002's Avatar
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,662
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV701775 View Post
One side of the rivet heads is below the 0.038in min thickness in listed in the mil-spec and the 0.5 dia thickness. So what I am trying to say is that they were also below the mil-spec on one side (i.e. 0.033in head thickness). The only way I can think to fix this is to increase rivet size
My recommendation would be to not try removing them.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Hubbard, Oregon
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
FAA/DAR
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:45 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.