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  #1  
Old 08-10-2019, 12:13 PM
jcarne's Avatar
jcarne jcarne is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Worland, Wyoming
Posts: 1,983
Default Panel review request, IFR

Hello, after talking to many people and thinking long and hard I have come up with two options that I am considering. Right now I think I am leaning towards option one with the Dynon SV com due to some sweet features in it but I am certainly not opposed to option two if someone has compelling reasons.

In either case I would greatly appreciate you all looking over the panel as I have it laid out and let me know if I missed anything I need or what you might do differently with the layout.

I am planning my panel for IFR but it will initially be VFR. What does this mean you ask? I want it fully wired for the IFR version so I can just drop the components in. The G5 on the left will initially be a simple airspeed indicator that uses the same size hole. The 430W on the bottom very well could be a GTN 650 instead. Other than those two items everything else should be in the VFR configuration as well.

Finally, the labeling around the switches could change, I'm not super thrilled with how I have it laid out around the master and mag switches right now.

Thanks everyone for your input!!!

Platform:
-RV-7A slider
-IO-360-M1B
-dual mags
-constant speed

Items common to both:
-dual HDX screens
-GMA245 audio panel
-all switches are Honeywell TL series
-master and mag switches are locking
-upper right are USB extension ports for the HDX screens
-lower right is a power plug for IPAD, etc.

Option 1 - Dynon SV com

dynon by Jereme Carne, on Flickr

Option 2 - GTR200 com

garmin by Jereme Carne, on Flickr
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Exempt but gladly paying!

Last edited by jcarne : 08-10-2019 at 04:45 PM.
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  #2  
Old 08-10-2019, 03:31 PM
Ed_Wischmeyer's Avatar
Ed_Wischmeyer Ed_Wischmeyer is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,576
Default

Good for you for not putting all your switches in one long line!

Here's the next step -- write out *all* of your checklists and procedures, day and night, IFR and VFR, even little things like entering clouds (pitot on, strobes off) or after takeoff (flaps up, pump off), and see if your hand operation moves smoothly across the panel or if your hand has to jump back and forth. You obviously want a single direction of motion. This concept is called "flow" in cockpit design.

Also double check FAR23 for standard placement of switches. Why? When somebody else flies this plane, or you fly another plane, you want habits to transfer, not to bite you.

Ed
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  #3  
Old 08-10-2019, 03:51 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 7,858
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Keep GPS as high as possible - so your eyes don’t have to look down from the AI. In fact there are placement requirements for TSO’d installations. Put the audio panel low. You’ll hardly ever use it. For that matter, if you want to save a few $$, ditch the audio panel and substitute a good intercom, one with multiple unswitched inputs. For 2 coms you’d need to wire in one switch to change from com 1 to com 2.
As Ed mentioned I think having the flap switch to the right of the throttle quadrant is more standard - I’d swap the flaps and aux fuel pump switches.
Do you have electric trim? If so, a prominently placed emergency cut off switch is needed.
My defrost fans are also ‘remove avionic heat’ fans. They’re on a pullable breaker instead of a switch. I cannot think of a reason why I would ever switch them off.

Last edited by BobTurner : 08-10-2019 at 04:27 PM.
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  #4  
Old 08-10-2019, 04:41 PM
Carl Froehlich's Avatar
Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dogwood Airpark (VA42)
Posts: 3,268
Default

You touch the SkyView Knob Panel more than anything else on the panel. Put it where your right hand can easily fall on it (as in low and left). Similarly the Autopilot panel is touched more than your Dynon radio (comm #2). Position it accordingly.

The audio panel is rarely used - keep it out of prime real estate. The 430W (or GTN-650) should be as high as possible.

Look beyond symmetry. Put stuff in priority of use. For example the G5 could be moved so long as it retains it’s back up functionality. Another example is moving the SkyView displays up on the panel - with some work on you switch layout you could free up enough space for a module or the audio panel below the displays.

Your master, aux alt and ignition switches are in prime real estate and perhaps take up more room than needed - but not used in flight (with exceptions for emergency). Consider regaining that space for higher priority items.

I only flew one plane with the Garmin GTR200 radio. Even though install was verified it’s performance fell short of the mark. On the other hand the Dynon radio in my planes performs as well as the GTN-650 radio. On one install the owner uses it as Comm #1 instead of the GTN-650.

Carl

Last edited by Carl Froehlich : 08-10-2019 at 05:00 PM.
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  #5  
Old 08-10-2019, 04:50 PM
fl-mike's Avatar
fl-mike fl-mike is offline
 
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Posts: 1,607
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Can't comment on the avionics except I asked some shops about Garmin vs Dynon radios and they felt the Garmin's are better. I do like the Dynon quick buttons for ATIS, etc. though. I know I hear a lot of transmissions from distant airports on my Icom A200 that my buddy doesn't hear on his Dynon radio. Could just be a setting, I don't know.

I would move a couple switches though.
I would go: Strobes, Nav, taxi, landing. At least put the strobe on the end so you can find it by feel in case you get in the clouds. Strobes and landing on the end are easier to find without looking. The other two can be more head-down if needed.
I "thumb" my flaps and it works great, so I'd leave that where you have it.
I might swap the boost pump and pitot heat positions.
I'd probably would move the cabin and fan switches over by the dimmers, but why do you need a cabin and panel light switch if you have dimmers? Just crank them down all the way.
I would also guard that start switch. Don't want to be hitting that accidentally. I don't really like start on the mag toggle, but at least guard it or use a locking type pull toggle that requires a pull to get up to the momentary start position.
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  #6  
Old 08-10-2019, 06:04 PM
jcarne's Avatar
jcarne jcarne is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Worland, Wyoming
Posts: 1,983
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post
Good for you for not putting all your switches in one long line!

Here's the next step -- write out *all* of your checklists and procedures, day and night, IFR and VFR, even little things like entering clouds (pitot on, strobes off) or after takeoff (flaps up, pump off), and see if your hand operation moves smoothly across the panel or if your hand has to jump back and forth. You obviously want a single direction of motion. This concept is called "flow" in cockpit design.

Also double check FAR23 for standard placement of switches. Why? When somebody else flies this plane, or you fly another plane, you want habits to transfer, not to bite you.

Ed
Haha ya I have seen a few panels where the switches are all in a line. Would get super confusing. Good idea on the checklists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
Keep GPS as high as possible - so your eyes don?t have to look down from the AI. In fact there are placement requirements for TSO?d installations. Put the audio panel low. You?ll hardly ever use it. For that matter, if you want to save a few $$, ditch the audio panel and substitute a good intercom, one with multiple unswitched inputs. For 2 coms you?d need to wire in one switch to change from com 1 to com 2.
As Ed mentioned I think having the flap switch to the right of the throttle quadrant is more standard - I?d swap the flaps and aux fuel pump switches.
Do you have electric trim? If so, a prominently placed emergency cut off switch is needed.
My defrost fans are also ?remove avionic heat? fans. They?re on a pullable breaker instead of a switch. I cannot think of a reason why I would ever switch them off.
Bob, thanks for the input. I will try and keep the GPS as high as I can, makes sense. I am limited to some degree though as there is a rib that angles down and will get in the way of that device. I also thought about the intercom as well but the audio panel has some features that I really want.

Electric trim yes but the A/P control module has a runaway trim cut off built in to it. Probably still a good idea to have a switch on it though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Froehlich View Post
You touch the SkyView Knob Panel more than anything else on the panel. Put it where your right hand can easily fall on it (as in low and left). Similarly the Autopilot panel is touched more than your Dynon radio (comm #2). Position it accordingly.

The audio panel is rarely used - keep it out of prime real estate. The 430W (or GTN-650) should be as high as possible.

Good point, although I'm not super concerned on this. Look at an SR-22 panel and how low them things are. Not saying it's better, but a few inches isn't too worrisome.

Look beyond symmetry. Put stuff in priority of use. For example the G5 could be moved so long as it retains it?s back up functionality. Another example is moving the SkyView displays up on the panel - with some work on you switch layout you could free up enough space for a module or the audio panel below the displays.

Good idea but I'm afraid the HDX button area sticks out a fair amount and may "cover" anything below it if close enough.

Your master, aux alt and ignition switches are in prime real estate and perhaps take up more room than needed - but not used in flight (with exceptions for emergency). Consider regaining that space for higher priority items.

They might take up some prime real estate but I also deem this area "the awkward" area of a panel for the right hand while in flight. Nice location but you have to reach across your body to some degree.

I only flew one plane with the Garmin GTR200 radio. Even though install was verified it?s performance fell short of the mark. On the other hand the Dynon radio in my planes performs as well as the GTN-650 radio. On one install the owner uses it as Comm #1 instead of the GTN-650.

I really appreciate that data point Carl. I am leaning Dynon but I have heard many comments about their lack of performance compared to Garmin so it's nice to see that isn't always the case.

Carl
Quote:
Originally Posted by fl-mike View Post
Can't comment on the avionics except I asked some shops about Garmin vs Dynon radios and they felt the Garmin's are better. I do like the Dynon quick buttons for ATIS, etc. though. I know I hear a lot of transmissions from distant airports on my Icom A200 that my buddy doesn't hear on his Dynon radio. Could just be a setting, I don't know.

I have heard this same thing from many people which is why I'm considering a Garmin com setup instead. Thanks for the data point.

I would move a couple switches though.
I would go: Strobes, Nav, taxi, landing. At least put the strobe on the end so you can find it by feel in case you get in the clouds. Strobes and landing on the end are easier to find without looking. The other two can be more head-down if needed.

Great idea on the lighting switch arrangement. Makes way more sense to put the strobe on the outside as well since it is more heavily used than the nav and taxi.

I "thumb" my flaps and it works great, so I'd leave that where you have it.
I might swap the boost pump and pitot heat positions.

I debated this same thing when I was working on the CAD model. My thought for the boost pump was to keep it away from flaps as I will rarely use pitot heat but boost quite often and I didn't want to accidentally hit the flaps.

I'd probably would move the cabin and fan switches over by the dimmers, but why do you need a cabin and panel light switch if you have dimmers? Just crank them down all the way.

Stupid ME! You just saved me $26 bucks, the dimmers go full off. Thanks!

I would also guard that start switch. Don't want to be hitting that accidentally. I don't really like start on the mag toggle, but at least guard it or use a locking type pull toggle that requires a pull to get up to the momentary start position.

Yep them switches are the locking kind (spring back to center from top) and wired in such a way that it won't start unless the right mag is off.
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PPL
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Exempt but gladly paying!
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  #7  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:10 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 7,858
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I think you'll find that on a certified SR22 that there are two GPS units, and that that way-low one is placarded "not for IFR use as primary" or some such words.

I'm just curious what audio panel functions you think you'll want or use (that an intercom with aux inputs doesn't offer).

As for coms, Trig has just recently come out with a new com. Too new to have heard any reviews/evaluations, but you might keep your eye on it - so you'll know more about it when you're ready to make the buy decision. (In case you didn't know, the Dynon transponder is made by Trig.)
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  #8  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:16 PM
Capt Capt is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 711
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The Airliners I flew where never that flash, doesn't anyone look out the window anymore and enjoy the view?
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  #9  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:25 PM
Dan Langhout's Avatar
Dan Langhout Dan Langhout is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Huntsville, AL USA
Posts: 611
Default Audio Panel

I've gotta say . . . . I touch my audio panel all the time. With 2 COMs and periodically having to listen to NAV IDs, its rare to have a flight where I didn't touch it multiple times. I typically put AWOS/ASOS on COM2 and various unicom or ATC freqs on COM1. Not unusual to listen to COM2 for a bit while monitoring COM1. (and there is the occasional fiddle with the right volume knob for XM radio tunes )

Everybody has their preferred processes . . . . . . .
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  #10  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:28 PM
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Gash Gash is offline
 
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Location: Goodyear, Arizona
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I have the HDX in my RV-7. You don't really need 2 HDX screens. That's way overkill. Save the money and buy a Garmin GTN-650 or 750 to replace that 430W. Better yet (and less expensive) is the Avidyne IFD-540. I have the GTN-750 in my Saratoga and the IFD-540 in my RV-7, and honestly I like the IFD-540 better.

Good luck on your design!
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