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  #1  
Old 11-30-2015, 09:02 AM
TheHDPilot TheHDPilot is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dallas Texas
Posts: 16
Default Part 2 of my RV-7A Aerobatics Lesson

The second half of my acro lesson doing Loops, Immelmans, and Spins

http://www.thehdpilot.com/aviation-video.aspx?id=81



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  #2  
Old 11-30-2015, 09:13 PM
eddieseve eddieseve is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 617
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I really enjoy watching you go through all of this, mistakes and all.

Well done.

Cheers
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First Flight 16th July 2012
RV-7 Phase 2, 30 Oct 2012
1100 hrs Feb 2020
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  #3  
Old 12-01-2015, 08:19 AM
TheHDPilot TheHDPilot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddieseve View Post
I really enjoy watching you go through all of this, mistakes and all.

Well done.

Cheers
Thanks Eddie! Hopefully others will watch it and think... "Hey, I should get some lessons. I'd definitely screw up less than That guy"
/Gene
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  #4  
Old 12-01-2015, 09:16 AM
sandifer sandifer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 667
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Another nice video Gene. Just curious - what was behind the recommendation to use right rudder in the initial pull into the loops? Unless your airplane has yaw trim issues, there's no reason to apply right rudder. If it was meant to correct the dragged left wing on the way up, that's best fixed by correcting your pull such that you pull straight back without inadvertently applying aileron.

Regarding that spin recovery technique, I assume he had you keeping the stick back so that you would not unintentionally bring the stick forward before you applied opposite recovery rudder, which could accelerate the spin. Your airplane seems to recover OK with rudder only, but not all airplanes are happy to do that. Standard (and more efficient) spin recovery would be to first apply opposite rudder and then immediately follow with moving the stick forward to around neutral. Good things to discuss on the ground with your instructor so you understand the reasons for the techniques you're using in the air.
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  #5  
Old 12-01-2015, 04:23 PM
eddieseve eddieseve is offline
 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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Originally Posted by TheHDPilot View Post
Thanks Eddie! Hopefully others will watch it and think... "Hey, I should get some lessons. I'd definitely screw up less than That guy"
/Gene
I'm with you on that, I try to get time with an instructor to critique my maneuvers on a regular basis and find it a real confidence builder.

Cheers
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First Flight 16th July 2012
RV-7 Phase 2, 30 Oct 2012
1100 hrs Feb 2020
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  #6  
Old 12-01-2015, 04:27 PM
eddieseve eddieseve is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandifer View Post
Another nice video Gene. Just curious - what was behind the recommendation to use right rudder in the initial pull into the loops? Unless your airplane has yaw trim issues, there's no reason to apply right rudder. If it was meant to correct the dragged left wing on the way up, that's best fixed by correcting your pull such that you pull straight back without inadvertently applying aileron.

Regarding that spin recovery technique, I assume he had you keeping the stick back so that you would not unintentionally bring the stick forward before you applied opposite recovery rudder, which could accelerate the spin. Your airplane seems to recover OK with rudder only, but not all airplanes are happy to do that. Standard (and more efficient) spin recovery would be to first apply opposite rudder and then immediately follow with moving the stick forward to around neutral. Good things to discuss on the ground with your instructor so you understand the reasons for the techniques you're using in the air.
Hi Eric,

What are your thoughts on holding full back stick while applying opposite rudder until the spin stops and then moving the stick forward and initiating recovery?

I was told that doing this helps to stop blanketing the rudder during the spin and allows for faster recovery ?

Cheers
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Sydney Australia
First Flight 16th July 2012
RV-7 Phase 2, 30 Oct 2012
1100 hrs Feb 2020
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  #7  
Old 12-01-2015, 08:12 PM
sandifer sandifer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddieseve View Post
What are your thoughts on holding full back stick while applying opposite rudder until the spin stops and then moving the stick forward and initiating recovery?

I was told that doing this helps to stop blanketing the rudder during the spin and allows for faster recovery?
Eddie, airplanes vary, but I've never flown one that recovered a spin more quickly with the stick held back than by moving it forward to a degree immediately after applying opposite rudder. Some airplanes won't recover at all unless the stick is brought forward. The Yak 52 is one of these. Most aerobatic airplanes will recover with rudder alone, but more slowly than using the standard PARE method that moves the stick forward.

It's true that at high angles of attack, aft stick would blank less of the rudder, but typical spin recovery involves both opposing the yaw and reducing AOA. Both aid in stopping a spin efficiently. So when you move the stick forward during spin recovery, you are reducing AOA. The lower your AOA, the less the rudder is blanked by the elevator due to airflow being more aligned with the fuselage. Reduced AOA makes the rudder more effective in opposing yaw. The reduced AOA and opposite rudder combine forces to effect the most efficient spin recovery.

The fastest spin recovery I've ever experienced in any airplane was actually in my old RV-3 after accelerating the spin by moving the stick forward to around neutral and waiting for the rotation to stabilize at its max rate. I then pushed opposite rudder and the spin immediately stopped like hitting a brick wall. NOTE: I'm not advocating for a new spin recovery technique here. I never tried that in other RVs. Heck, it never even occurred to me to try in the Pitts until now. Not much use for this sort of thing in competition.

Last edited by sandifer : 12-01-2015 at 08:30 PM.
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  #8  
Old 12-01-2015, 08:24 PM
eddieseve eddieseve is offline
 
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Thanks for the explanation Eric much appreciated

Cheers
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  #9  
Old 12-02-2015, 08:00 AM
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MarkW MarkW is offline
 
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Eric,
I have always used right rudder on the loop entry due to P-factor.
Even some left on the backside.
Are you saying that is incorrect?
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  #10  
Old 12-02-2015, 08:45 AM
sandifer sandifer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkW View Post
Eric,
I have always used right rudder on the loop entry due to P-factor.
Even some left on the backside.
Are you saying that is incorrect?
Mark, I'd not call that incorrect if your particular airplane (and how you fly it) requires that, and gives you proper results. At typical loop entry speeds in the various airplanes I've flown, I've never noticed a need for right rudder until the over-the-top section where you'll notice some slipstream yaw due to the low airspeed.

When you pitch into a loop, yes there is slight P-factor, but there is also a little gyroscopic precession (in right turning engines) that applies a right yawing force. This is stronger with metal props, of course. This tends to cancel any need for right rudder during the pull into a loop. Some high power-to-weight airplanes running metal props may actually need a touch of left rudder pressure when pitching hard into a loop. And in high-powered airplanes with light composite props, I've never noticed a need for right rudder, but airplanes vary, and your experience may be different. For most pilots, the need for right rudder during loop entry means they are correcting a dragged wing condition due to inadvertently applying a touch of left aileron during the pull. This is very common.

But you also mention left rudder on the backside. I assume this is because you're pulling power off on the backside? At high speed, and low power settings, many airplanes require some left rudder to trim the airplane regardless of any maneuvering. But if you maintain a high power setting throughout the loop, you likely will not need that, but again that is my experience, and your airplane and experience may be different.

I notice lots of folks pulling large amounts of power off (even to idle) on the backside of loops for fear of overspeeding and blowing out low. This is not necessary, and will not lead to nice looking loops. As long as you exit the loop at just about the same altitude as you entered, it's physically impossible to gain airspeed during the loop if your power setting is constant. Don't pull power, just manage your G so that you end up about the same altitude as you entered. Of course, be ready to pull power if you mess it up a little.

Last edited by sandifer : 12-02-2015 at 08:53 AM.
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