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Possible AD for certain NAVWORX ADS-B Units

Who Done It?

I flew this morning and just requested a report. I'm pretty sure this is a new question as I don't remember answering it in the past;

"Please provide the Installer of your ADS-B OUT Equipment. ADS-B OUT Equipment Installer
*Installer Category:
Repair Shop
Airframe Powerplant Mechanic
Factory Installed
Self Installed - Experimental
Self Installed - Light Sport
Not Known
[*Denotes required input.]"

Repair Shop, Mechanic ask for State, City, and Shop/Mechanic name.

FWIW, my report came back No Exceptions, as usual.
 
keijidosha said:
I flew this morning and just requested a report. I'm pretty sure this is a new question as I don't remember answering it in the past;

.....
Click to expand...

I did mine a few days ago and Dynon wasn't even in the pull-down list for the manufacturer...:rolleyes:
 
keijidosha said:
I flew this morning and just requested a report. I'm pretty sure this is a new question as I don't remember answering it in the past;

"Please provide the Installer of your ADS-B OUT Equipment. ADS-B OUT Equipment Installer
*Installer Category:
Repair Shop
Airframe Powerplant Mechanic
Factory Installed
Self Installed - Experimental
Self Installed - Light Sport
Not Known
[*Denotes required input.]"

Repair Shop, Mechanic ask for State, City, and Shop/Mechanic name.

FWIW, my report came back No Exceptions, as usual.
Click to expand...
WAY before that point on the FAA page, you need to pick which ADS-B OUT Data link(s) you have. If you have a DYNON, select 1090ES which is what their transponder's frequency. THEN you can select DYNON under <MANUFACTURER>. DYNON does not manufacture a UAT unit so if you select that option, it doesn't show up.

REMEMBER the FAA is only interested in ADS-B OUT, they don't care about ADS-B IN.

:cool:
 
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If you're configuration is set to "anonymous " the FAA system can't find your record and will not generate a report.
Reconfigure to show your N number and you should get a report in minuets.
 
phobos_49 said:
If you're configuration is set to "anonymous " the FAA system can't find your record and will not generate a report.
Reconfigure to show your N number and you should get a report in minuets.
Click to expand...

Since he's talking about a mode S-ES transponder, "anonymous" is not an option.
 
Jarhead was correct.

My Navworx ADS600-EXP was in the stealth mode.

I had switched to that mode a few months ago and had forgotten about it.

Problem of no ADS-B reports, solved.

Bill
 
WOW, this thread has over 101,000 views and 475 posts in less than 7 months. :eek:
 
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Still no update on the actual AD since the 11th!

A lot of folks and a couple businesses are anxiously awaiting the government moving slower than the speed of smell!

Mine is still in for repair and I almost rather it stay there until after the AD comes out so my box would come back to me fully compliant - and functional!
 
AD Update

I just received a reply to my status email inquiry to David Hempe, the FAA contact listed under the AD status web page. It reads:

"We are completing the review of the Federal Register AD and plan to issue the document in the next couple of weeks. It has a few steps left inside the agency. Unfortunately, due to us being so close to the issuance on this rule I cannot provide you with more detailed information.

Sincerely, Dave"

By the way, my Navworx 600 B-EXP is installed and working great!! Sure hope I don't have to change anything.

Bob Cowan
RV-7A, IO 360, Hartzel Blended Airfoil,
 
Bob - thanks for the update!

Hopefully, once the AD is actually out, the mystery and uncertainty will be gone! Maybe then we'll see more activity from the NavWorx folks responding to our information and update requests!
 
So has anyone made sense of this yet? Or been able to reach anyone at Navworx or Dallas Avionics? From what I can tell, they are saying that there is a software update that will ONLY fix the problem UNTIL 2020. If you want your ADS600B to operate like it should after 2020 (ie what we paid for) you will have to send it in for an internal GPS upgrade at a cost of either $349 or $599...all this in addition to NOT being able to claim the $500 FAA rebate.

WOW - maybe I am misunderstanding what is written below. Someone please correct me and tell me this is not the case.



FROM THE NAVWORX WEBSITE:

Proposed FAA Airworthiness Directive: We are anticipating an FAA AD to be issued on existing ADS600-B Systems. Be assured we have taken steps to ensure seamless instructions for AD compliance. Upon issuance and review, NavWorx is prepared to release a new software revision which will allow for continued operation up to 2020. It is anticipated that the software update will not require removal of system components and can be completed by utilizing existing configuration computer port already installed in aircraft installation. As stated above, we have established an upgrade path for existing customers to upgrade to the new ADS600-B NexGen 2.0 System that will comply with FAA 2020 mandate.

ADS600-B Upgrade for 2020 Compliance: Upgrade of existing systems to include internal GPS upgrade.

Units with S/N 1602000 or earlier - List $ 599.00
Units with S,N 1602001 or later - List $ 349.00

Please Contact Scott Edwards to schedule your upgrade (upgrades begin in 7/1).

Technical and Sales Support: We are in the process of transferring all Technical and Sales support to Dallas Avionics, Inc. and will be able to accept new system, system upgrade/exchange orders by 5/1/17. Contact your local Dallas Avionics, Inc. sales representative for details or contact Scott Edwards (Dallas Avionics, Inc. Product Line specialist) at 214-668-7466 for all Technical or Sales inquiries. Certified Aircraft installation and new equipment sales will be managed through our established qualified dealer network (Refer to our dealer page for a contact near you).

We look forward to greeting everyone one at EAA Airventure 2017 Oshkosh Booth 4054
 
I'm expecting a savvy lawyer to grab the original advertisements, contact us and start a class action! That would take NavWorx down completely - which we don't want!

As much as I hate paying a second time for the functionality that I expected initially, The FAA did change the rules after the game started so NavWorx was operating in good faith!
 
600B

I'll second that........ They're not getting another dime from me. I'll have a 600B with "certified" GPS on board with Transmon, GPS antenna, and TED antenna for sale. I've had it!!
 
I don't think its as bad as it sounds.

My interpretation is that the software update will guarantee that the unit will work until 2020, at which time you must use a certified GPS source.

You then have two options, use an external certified GPS source (i.e. GNS430, GTN650, etc.) or purchase the GPS upgrade from Navworx.


txshan130 said:
So has anyone made sense of this yet? Or been able to reach anyone at Navworx or Dallas Avionics? From what I can tell, they are saying that there is a software update that will ONLY fix the problem UNTIL 2020. If you want your ADS600B to operate like it should after 2020 (ie what we paid for) you will have to send it in for an internal GPS upgrade at a cost of either $349 or $599...all this in addition to NOT being able to claim the $500 FAA rebate.

WOW - maybe I am misunderstanding what is written below. Someone please correct me and tell me this is not the case.



FROM THE NAVWORX WEBSITE:

Proposed FAA Airworthiness Directive: We are anticipating an FAA AD to be issued on existing ADS600-B Systems. Be assured we have taken steps to ensure seamless instructions for AD compliance. Upon issuance and review, NavWorx is prepared to release a new software revision which will allow for continued operation up to 2020. It is anticipated that the software update will not require removal of system components and can be completed by utilizing existing configuration computer port already installed in aircraft installation. As stated above, we have established an upgrade path for existing customers to upgrade to the new ADS600-B NexGen 2.0 System that will comply with FAA 2020 mandate.

ADS600-B Upgrade for 2020 Compliance: Upgrade of existing systems to include internal GPS upgrade.

Units with S/N 1602000 or earlier - List $ 599.00
Units with S,N 1602001 or later - List $ 349.00

Please Contact Scott Edwards to schedule your upgrade (upgrades begin in 7/1).

Technical and Sales Support: We are in the process of transferring all Technical and Sales support to Dallas Avionics, Inc. and will be able to accept new system, system upgrade/exchange orders by 5/1/17. Contact your local Dallas Avionics, Inc. sales representative for details or contact Scott Edwards (Dallas Avionics, Inc. Product Line specialist) at 214-668-7466 for all Technical or Sales inquiries. Certified Aircraft installation and new equipment sales will be managed through our established qualified dealer network (Refer to our dealer page for a contact near you).

We look forward to greeting everyone one at EAA Airventure 2017 Oshkosh Booth 4054
Click to expand...
 
Any speculation on how the AD may affect the 600EXP? All the comments have been very quite about what may happen with the EXP . Being a non TSOd unit for LSA and Exp, it will be interesting to see what the fate of this unit may be. AOPA comments for the AD were fairly direct in how the FAA could and could not address the non certified experimental device Anyone have any inside info?
 
DennisRhodes said:
Any speculation on how the AD may affect the 600EXP? All the comments have been very quite about what may happen with the EXP . Being a non TSOd unit for LSA and Exp, it will be interesting to see what the fate of this unit may be. AOPA comments for the AD were fairly direct in how the FAA could and could not address the non certified experimental device Anyone have any inside info?
Click to expand...


See my other post# 2
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=149343&highlight=Navworx

Dallas Avionics believes there will be no action on the EXP boxes.
That is of the opinion of Scott Edwards.

Time will tell. Some say is only a few weeks away. I would think it will be settled before Oshkosh. I don't think Navworx will want to show up there without this issue being resolved.
 
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Got my unit back from repair yesterday - re-installed today.
Looks like it is functioning properly with the exception of display port 2 - which is a known software issue.

I guess we'll know more as we hear from others...and when the AD Actually comes out!
 
Lol...guess it depends on your outlook. My ADS600-B has already cost me the $500 rebate which I will not be getting.

I can't use the position output from my 430W as I can't get to the wiring bundle :-(

Anyone know if the position output from the GRT 2020 external GPS module can be used as an input to the ADS600-B?

Keeping my fingers crossed...

rleffler said:
I don't think its as bad as it sounds.

My interpretation is that the software update will guarantee that the unit will work until 2020, at which time you must use a certified GPS source.

You then have two options, use an external certified GPS source (i.e. GNS430, GTN650, etc.) or purchase the GPS upgrade from Navworx.
Click to expand...
 
If the output from the GRT box is ADSB+ which the GRT website says the GRT SafeFly is - you should be good to go!

Just remember, The FAA has already changed the rules once - which got us to where we currently are!
 
recapen said:
If the output from the GRT box is ADSB+ which the GRT website says the GRT SafeFly is - you should be good to go!

Just remember, The FAA has already changed the rules once - which got us to where we currently are!
Click to expand...

Nowhere does GRT say the output format is ADSB+. In fact it does not offer that option, which I believe is a proprietary Garmin code. The new GRT box outputs NMEA 0183 at 4.8k and 9.6k; and NexNav format at 38.4k ("NN33"). The NN33 can be used by the Trig TT22 and 31 transponders.
In addition, several manufacturers have told me that the FAA wants a statement from the manufacturer that their GPS box meets the TSO specs when paired with specific transmitters. GRT has such a statement in the manual for Trig transponders (TT21, 22, 31) and 'soon' for Sandia; plus the just announced Echo UAT. There is no statement for the NavWorx products.
 
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You are correct - Here's what is on their website...:

The GRT Safe-Fly is a 2020 ADS-B compliant GPS, allowing it to be used as the navigation source for your compatible ADS-B output. This full compliance with FAR 91.227 allows your ADS-B output to trigger the return of traffic data. This demanding standard requires a GPS that is reliable to better than one undetected failure per million hours, making it a natural as your navigation source for your GRT EFIS.
 
roadrunner20 said:
Dallas Avionics believes there will be no action on the EXP boxes.
That is of the opinion of Scott Edwards.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth (I know, its worth very little), I am of the same opinion as Scott.

After reading the docket comments on the NPRM, I think the FAA will quietly step back from doing anything about the EXP. (With the exception, of course, of forcing it out of new production.)

I believe this mainly because the exact same GPS that NavWorx used in that unit is also used in a whole series of name-brand products within the Experimental community. And the FAA has no stated intention of issuing a rule against any of those products.

Which again begs the question of why any of this heartburn was necessary in the first place, but I digress...

David
 
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If the FAA leaves the EXP units out of the AD, they are accepting Bill's premise of functionality over certification (and the initial reason for acceptance of the 012 and 013 units) - for the Experimental crowd!
 
Maybe.

Or maybe they're just accepting that publishing a rule (for failure to meet a certification standard) against a product that is not certified might be an endeavor that exposes certain thorns that are better left buried.

Especially in a time when the FAA is encouraging the use of non-certified products in certified aircraft.
 
Document dump on the NAVWORX AD this morning at

https://www.regulations.gov/docketBrowser?rpp=25&so=DESC&sb=postedDate&po=0&D=FAA-2016-9226

Includes the following items
U.S. DOT/FAA - Supporting AD Documents
05/31/2017 ID:
FAA-2016-9226-0207
Emergency Order of Suspension, NavWorx, Inc.
undefined Supporting & Related Material Posted:
05/31/2017 ID:
FAA-2016-9226-0208
Corrective Action Review Board Meeting Minutes
undefined
05/31/2017 ID:
FAA-2016-9226-0211
U.S. DOT/FAA - Supporting AD Documents
05/31/2017 ID:
FAA-2016-9226-0206
Safety Risk Management Document August 2014
undefined
05/31/2017 ID:
FAA-2016-9226-0210
Emergency Order of Suspension, NavWorx, Inc.
undefined
05/31/2017 ID:
FAA-2016-9226-0209
 
Looks like this is mostly supporting and background documentation from the FAA's side. Unless I'm mis-reading it, the broad emergency order of suspension has been lifted but there is still an Unapproved Parts Notification that is effective on the -0012 and -0013 units that use software version 4.0.6 (SIL 3) or any future software version that incorporates SIL 3.
 
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Looks like there was a recommendation to include the Experimental devices as well! Buried in one of these documents.
 
recapen said:
Looks like there was a recommendation to include the Experimental devices as well! Buried in one of these documents.
Click to expand...

There was an attempt to include the experimentals in the AD, but they can't do that, so the experimentals were covered under the Unapproved Parts issuance.
 
And the data dumps continue - more added today and possibly more coming.

As Paul Harvey would say - "The REST of the story" is now coming out. Reading the technical rationale behind the FAA's decision to TIS-B changes sheds some light on what happened, why, when, and who knew about it, and when. Some emails between NavWork and the FAA are also included, which gives some insight into the situation as well.
 
One of those e-mails details their expected customer blowback from the -12 and -13 units not being able to continue receiving TIS/FIS traffic due to the SIL requirement change...based on the expectation of reception due to functional compatibility instead of a compliance certification.
 
I am thankful to have my unit back and working - and that I installed it using a certified position source (430W).

Hopefully, all I get is updated software that transmits SIL0 when the internal (non-certified) GPS is used and SIL3 when connected to the 430W....and display port 2 fixed!
 
recapen said:
I am thankful to have my unit back and working - and that I installed it using a certified position source (430W).

Hopefully, all I get is updated software that transmits SIL0 when the internal (non-certified) GPS is used and SIL3 when connected to the 430W....and display port 2 fixed!
Click to expand...

Ralph,
Unfortunately, we who are using the 430W as a position source are still screwed. The AD is out. I don't know how many Navworx deceptions I can put up with (or afford). Here's the pertinent info about the 430W:

Some commenters stated or implied that other external GPS sources, such as the Garmin 530W, the Garmin GNS 430W, the Garmin GNS 480, and the Garmin GTN 650, are approved for installation in the ADS600-B. Contrary to any documentation these commenters may have from NavWorx, the only FAA-approved external GPS source is the Accord NexNav mini P/N 21000. Documentation of this is available for review in Docket No. FAA-2016-9226.
Click to expand...
 
Synopsis anyone? Haven't had time to read it through yet. But from my first glance, it appears that we are in trouble if Navworx doesn't cooperate and come up with some solutions that the FAA agrees with.

JohnAJohnson said:
Ralph,
Unfortunately, we who are using the 430W as a position source are still screwed. The AD is out. I don't know how many Navworx deceptions I can put up with (or afford). Here's the pertinent info about the 430W:
Click to expand...
 
OK - so the AD is out on the streets...the way I read it, within 6 months of July 11th (Jan 11, 2018 - give or take a day!), the 0012, 0013, and 8013 PN's are useless in that state.

You can't get an upgrade of the internal GPS until after 1 July - then Dallas Avionics will be busy ($599 more for us early adopters)...do we know that this upgrade will turn our units in to 0112/0113 and 'certified' EXP boxes? Then more money to put in the second GPS antenna for the upgraded box...customers are currently on the hook for both of these!

Is anyone pursuing the use of the 400W/500W, 600/700, or 480 as a certified external solution? If these are certified for approaches and contain the software to output the proper data stream - we should be able to use them.

I plan to request the use of my 430W as an Alternate Method of Compliance and see what they say. I'll update with their response!
 
recapen said:
OK - so the AD is out on the streets...the way I read it, within 6 months of July 11th (Jan 11, 2018 - give or take a day!), the 0012, 0013, and 8013 PN's are useless in that state.

You can't get an upgrade of the internal GPS until after 1 July - then Dallas Avionics will be busy ($599 more for us early adopters)...do we know that this upgrade will turn our units in to 0112/0113 and 'certified' EXP boxes? Then more money to put in the second GPS antenna for the upgraded box...customers are currently on the hook for both of these!

Is anyone pursuing the use of the 400W/500W, 600/700, or 480 as a certified external solution? If these are certified for approaches and contain the software to output the proper data stream - we should be able to use them.

I plan to request the use of my 430W as an Alternate Method of Compliance and see what they say. I'll update with their response!
Click to expand...

I was going to do the same for my GTN650. If you read the comments that the FAA published last week, it stated the Garmin told them that the 480 wasn't compliant.

I'm not optimistic at the moment, the AD appears to be harsher than I anticipated. It also doesn't paint a clear path with the Navworx announced upgrades. Navworx still has to prove to the FAA that the new units are compliant. Based upon their track record, I'm not sure what to expect.
 
I have requested the AMOC via email - I'll update with any response!
Since Garmin updated their 400W/500W software for this, I would think it could be used!

There I go, thinking again!
 
recapen said:
...do we know that this upgrade will turn our units in to 0112/0113 and 'certified' EXP boxes?
Click to expand...

My question too. Just because Navworx says it will make things 2020 compliant doesn't make it so. Fool me once (ADS600-B), Fool me twice (GNS430W)...

And here's another question.... I cannot see anyway that the exchange boxes will carry the 112/113 part numbers. Will the new boxes, with their new part numbers be eligible for the $500 rebate (if installed before the September cutoff)? Will the FAA consider the 012/013 boxes as legitimate ADS-B installations, thus nullifying the second dip at the well for rebate purposes?

recapen said:
Is anyone pursuing the use of the 400W/500W, 600/700, or 480 as a certified external solution? If these are certified for approaches and contain the software to output the proper data stream - we should be able to use them.

I plan to request the use of my 430W as an Alternate Method of Compliance and see what they say. I'll update with their response!
Click to expand...

I see lots of ADS-B systems authorized to use the 430W as a position source at the FAA site and a lot of systems that aren't. This tells me that Garmin or other WAAS equipment isn't an automatic shoe-in as a position source but must be certificated WITH the specific ADS-B box. Insanity that would probably take a company two years and a wheelbarrow full of money to do.

I can't see an individual getting an AMOC for the 430W, but if you were to do it and have it approved, it should open the door for everyone else to do it. Press on and please keep us posted!
 
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JohnAJohnson said:
Will the new boxes, with their new part numbers be eligible for the $500 rebate (if installed before the September cutoff)? Will the FAA consider the 012/013 boxes as legitimate ADS-B installations, thus nullifying the second dip at the well for rebate purposes?
Click to expand...

If the aircraft has ever transmitted ADS-B OUT before, it is not eligible for the rebate. Doesn't matter if the previous ADS-B was compliant or not, certified or not.
 
recapen said:
OK - so the AD is out on the streets...the way I read it, within 6 months of July 11th (Jan 11, 2018 - give or take a day!), the 0012, 0013, and 8013 PN's are useless in that state.
Click to expand...

The way I read it, the AD is effective July 11 and compliance required in six months. December is the sixth month after July, so action must be taken by December 31, 2017.

The FAA waited a long time to publish this AD. I would guess that they have reached some internal point in the approval process for the new NavWorx products.

I think there will be multiple paths forward by the end of this year. Let's see what announcements are made at Oshkosh.
 
Good clarification in the AD. About what I expected.

Summary of what happened with the NavWorx boxes:

- NavWorx released ADS-B boxes with an uncertified GPS chip, using a SIL of 0. The FAA was fine with this.
- The FAA decided that units using a SIL of 0 shouldn't get traffic. (why??)
- NavWorx published a software patch to change their SIL from 0 to 3 without actually ensuring their hardware/software was SIL 3 compliant.
- The FAA has rejected this change due to non-compliance, thus the AD.

Re: 430W and GTN650: It is up to NavWorx to confirm performance compliance with those GPS sources, which NavWorx has not done. It would be interesting to see if you can get field approval for that pairing - though I would expect you'd have to show proof of compliance too.
 
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