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  #11  
Old 06-09-2021, 03:58 PM
Kmdpilot Kmdpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Bend
Posts: 9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12vaitor View Post
I concur with this webinar being an excellent explanation between operating IFR in IMC vs IFR in VMC as it applies to SLSA and ELSA aircraft. Bottom line was the ASTM standard for LSA prohibits IMC operation, which applies to the ELSA operating limits defined in the RV-12 POH. The POH specifically states operation in IFR/IMC is prohibited. Apparently the lack of a specific prohibition on IFR/VMC means you can fly/file IFR (if so equipped) as long as you remain in VMC.

If you build EAB, you can have OpLimits/fly IFR/IMC if 91.205(d) is complied with, which is what I did. Answering the OP, I installed a heated pitot tube in the wing with quick disconnect fittings to retain the removable wing capability. The Dynon Skyview AP can fly a coupled approach with my IFD-540, the only part missing is an auto-throttle to control speed. I do not fly in IMC, however it is nice to have the capability if I ever get in a VMC to IMC situation.

John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
Thanks! Thatís what I was thinking. I really donít want to fly in true imc conditions either. But if I have to, I like knowing I have the ability.
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  #12  
Old 06-09-2021, 08:56 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,103
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This seems to be a debate that comes up every 6 months or so on the forum. I can tell you that I finished my ELSA RV-12 in 2012 and my OLs do not reference the POH, and they specifically allow IFR with no IMC restrictions if properly equipped. I have an email from my DAR specifically addressing my question about this issue.
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  #13  
Old 06-10-2021, 02:04 PM
12vaitor 12vaitor is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Panama City, FL
Posts: 178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFSchaller View Post
This seems to be a debate that comes up every 6 months or so on the forum. I can tell you that I finished my ELSA RV-12 in 2012 and my OLs do not reference the POH, and they specifically allow IFR with no IMC restrictions if properly equipped. I have an email from my DAR specifically addressing my question about this issue.
The explanation in the webinar regarding OLs for ELSA is the aircraft may only be operated per the manufacturer's aircraft operating instructions (AOI), which is an ASTM requirement associated with the SLSA reference aircraft for ELSA compliance. As the ASTM does not allow operation in IMC of any LSA, Van's AOI would have to indicate that limitation. The current RV-12 POH Operating Limitations clearly indicate IFR/IMC operation is prohibited, although earlier versions stated "Flight in IFR conditions is prohibited". I think the current POH wording is consistent with intent of the ASTM prohibiting LSAs flying in IMC and not caring about IFR operation in VMC.

If your DAR wrote your OLs to override the ASTM/Van's ELSA AOI and POH prohibitions on IFR/IMC, I guess they can do that, but I would think the aircraft was no longer ASTM ELSA complaint at that point. Did you change your POH OLs to modify the prohibition on IFR flight? As I went EAB, I wrote my own POH that agrees with my OLs allowing IFR/IMC operations.

John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
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  #14  
Old 06-10-2021, 09:03 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
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John, that is what perplexes me. Recently I have seen members discussing adherence to the POH in the ELSA OLs. My OLs were issued in March 2012 and are silent on the POH. Thatís why I think it would be great if Mel, the DAR, would comment on the regulatory implications of the POH for ELSA OLs and if anything has changed since the initial OLs. My DAR gave me the clarification after discussing with the FSDO staff.
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  #15  
Old 06-11-2021, 10:06 AM
12vaitor 12vaitor is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Panama City, FL
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The POH is still a required document for operation of the aircraft (ARROW), and the OLs are part of the SAW certificate. If your RV-12 POH has an operating limitation prohibiting flight in IFR/IMC, that would conflict with the SAW-OLs allowing it. I am sure this is not the first case of FAA guidance (FSDO in this case) conflicting with the FAA regulations (ELSAs complying with the ASTM standards). Did the DAR read the ELSA RV-12 POH OLs when he did the AW inspection? My EAB RV-12 POH had the correct FAR 91 wording for IFR/IMC operation at the time in the AW inspection, so my SAW-OLs are consistent.

For ELSA I presume you can modify the POH yourself after the initial ELSA AW approval to reflect any modifications you make to the aircraft to add an IFR capability.

John Salak
RV12 N896HS
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  #16  
Old 06-11-2021, 02:31 PM
Taltruda Taltruda is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12vaitor View Post
The POH is still a required document for operation of the aircraft (ARROW), and the OLs are part of the SAW certificate.
I don't think we use ARROW anymore, as "Radio operators License" isn't required in the US. Is an owners manual (poh) even required with ELSA? I don't think it is with EAB, but I'm always looking forward to learning. .
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Wings Started.. 11-2020
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  #17  
Old 06-11-2021, 07:32 PM
12vaitor 12vaitor is offline
 
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Location: Panama City, FL
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ß 91.327 Ė Aircraft having a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category: Operating limitations.
(d) Each person operating an aircraft issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category must operate the aircraft in accordance with the aircraft's operating instructions, including any provisions for necessary operating equipment specified in the aircraft's equipment list.

ASTM F2746
1. Scope
1.1 This specification provides the minimum requirements for a Pilotís Operating Handbook (POH) for an aircraft designed, manufactured, and operated as a light sport aircraft.
1.2 This specification defines the POH information that shall be provided by the aircraft manufacturer of a new airplane or airplane kit as a part of the initial sale or transfer to the first- end user.
NOTE 1: The POH may also be referred to as an Aircraft Operating Instruction (AOI). However, POH is considered the approved nomenclature.
1.3 This specification applies to an airplane seeking civil aviation authority approval, in the form of flight certificates, flight permits, or other like documentation as a light sport aircraft.


The RV-12 POH states there must be a paper or electronic copy of the POH in the aircraft during flight. Not sure if I needed it for EAB (debated elsewhere), so I modified the ELSA RV-12 POH for my particular configuration and had it available as part of the documentation package. If I ever get a ramp check its easier to have a POH vs debating if an EAB needs a POH.

I am still curious if the aircraft owner can modify the ELSA POH to overcome the ASTM LSA restriction on no IMC operations. It maybe that same argument for mods increasing speed over 120 knots or adding an in-flight adjustable prop, when does it become an EAB vs ELSA.

John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
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  #18  
Old 06-11-2021, 07:34 PM
FlyingDiver FlyingDiver is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Southwest Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12vaitor View Post
[i]ß 91.327 – Aircraft having a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category: Operating limitations.
That's an S-LSA, not an E-LSA. I don't think that applies, directly.
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2021 Donation Paid
RV-12iS kit on order...
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  #19  
Old 06-11-2021, 09:23 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
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When my OLs were issued the POH did not address IMC. The AWC is based on documentation effective at the time of issuance. Revising your OLs to every rev of the POH is a bit like the old ex post facto law issuance: they canít convict you of a crime that wasnít a crime when you did it.

I still maintain that if the POH isnít referenced in the OLs from the DAR then the POH is not an OL. A mute point for me since I only fly my 12 in day VFR, but others may wish to exercise IFR in IMC.
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  #20  
Old 06-12-2021, 12:39 PM
12vaitor 12vaitor is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Panama City, FL
Posts: 178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingDiver View Post
That's an S-LSA, not an E-LSA. I don't think that applies, directly.
Light Sport Category applies to both S-LSA and E-LSA. See ASTM F2746, 1.2 in the previous post for the "airplane kit" (as in E-LSA) applicability of operating an LSA aircraft according to the POH (and associated OLs).

FAR 91.327 is a regulation, and as we have seen in the recently released FAA letter on flight training in experiential aircraft, the regulation overrides any FAA guidance or prior practice when a conflict exists. If a DAR/FSDO issues SAWC OLs that conflict with a FAR regulation, the FAR regulation wins in court. If you take a flight instructor up in your experimental aircraft and do not have a LODA, according to the FAA, you just violated the FAR on using an experiential aircraft for compensation despite FAA issued guidance to the contrary. Bottom line is you are the PIC and responsible for aircraft operations within the FARs.

John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
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