-9a transition training? Pireps please

I am investigating doing some training after about 50 hours in my -9a.
( no, not the best way to do it!...I did get 5 hrs dual/recurrency when i bought it)
My question; what do you 9 drivers think about doing your transition training in a 6 or 7? Are all the skills transferable, or is there a disconnect due to the speeds and handling characteristics of the different models?
Obviously you want a ship as close to your own, as far as power, prop, panel etc.

looking for some frank feedback..........and thanks!

I fly a -9 but did my transition training in a -6. Jan understood and trained for the differences. I did not see a problem.
However he will also train in your ship as I am sure others will do.
That would be the best. Jan does both TW and NW training as he has a -6 and -6a.

I flew the 6A with Mike Seagar but I didn't do my first flight for over a year later. I did do some minor air work from the right seat of a couple of 6's and 9's in the weeks before I did my first flight just to knock the rust off.

I found that I had more trouble getting consistent landings in the 6 than in the 9. I've had no trouble at all making consistent landings in the 9. The time in the 6 made the 9 seem very easy...not that the 6 is a handful at all. It's just a bit more sensitive than the 9.

Bottom line, the training I got in the 6 was very transferrable to the 9. I did appreciate the rides in the 9's I got though. I would recommend it.

any Canadians do this???? How????

without a lot of research, I'm gonna take a wild guess that I can't fly my -9a into the U.S. and get training in it.
....and....I wonder if there are any issues with me flying a U.S. registered amateurbuilt in the beautiful southern skies?????

Last summer I got transition training in a 7A powered by a Suburu engine and constant speed prop. This was for my maiden flight in my 9a with fixed pitch prop. The 7a is heavier than my plane then add full fuel and the instructor. With the prop you could really drop in the landing pattern. With the 9a as you know, if your speed is too high in the pattern you will use a lot of runway with the float. Maneuverability wise I found both planes comparable.

You must have a good reason not to get the training in your own plane. If you find a comparable 7 out their that is close by I wouldn't hesitate to go for it.
Frankly I find both planes easier to fly than a Cessna Skyhawk in most cases but the speed at which things can go south can bite you if not paying attention in the faster RV'S. Diverging here....you already know this.

Jim

flyboy1963 said:

without a lot of research, I'm gonna take a wild guess that I can't fly my -9a into the U.S. and get training in it.
....and....I wonder if there are any issues with me flying a U.S. registered amateurbuilt in the beautiful southern skies?????

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I know of no rule prohibiting a US CFI from giving you currency training in your airplane. If you wanted training toward a rating (instrument, for example) then you'd have to go thru the alien flight training rules, which are a mess.

If you fly anyone elses E-AB aircraft they will have to loan it to you for no compensation, or hold a LODA (waiver) allowing them to rent it for transition training. You should ask direct questions about insurance coverage, too.

didn't find the training that useful for preparing me...

specifically for the -9. trained in a -7 w/CS prop, prolly that's why. it's helpful that both were taildraggers, obviously, but the landing characteristics for the different wings as well as different prop configurations in the CS 7 and the FP 9 were such that I still had to teach myself to land the -9. it makes the insurance company happy and all training is helpful, but if you already have 50 hours in your plane you'll be learning to fly/land the plane you take the training in, not yours.

My transition training was with Mike Seeger in RV6a. Mike managed to relate it directly to the RV9a. Both had fixed pitch and learning to slow down in the pattern was key to success. Training was very good. I did mine in February 2012. It took 3 tries as we had 2 weather cancelations. I did my first flight 709RV 7 days later and never looked back.

After flying other stuff, the key was how to slow the thing down. Also, very low idle speed so it does not float on flare.

JSOliveira said:

My transition training was with Mike Seeger in RV6a. Mike managed to relate it directly to the RV9a. Both had fixed pitch and learning to slow down in the pattern was key to success. Training was very good. I did mine in February 2012. It took 3 tries as we had 2 weather cancelations. I did my first flight 709RV 7 days later and never looked back.

After flying other stuff, the key was how to slow the thing down. Also, very low idle speed so it does not float on flare.

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Besides pulling back on the throttle am curious to know what techniques you use to slow down in the pattern. I keep finding myself entering the pattern too fast and pulling back on the gas isn't enough sometimes.

Jim
RV9a phase 1

thanks for the pireps!

jimbo said:

Besides pulling back on the throttle am curious to know what techniques you use to slow down in the pattern. I keep finding myself entering the pattern too fast and pulling back on the gas isn't enough sometimes.
Jim
RV9a phase 1

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Jim, I am the last guy to give instruction; but I have the same issue, and find it's just learned behaviour, and resistance to be more forceful (in my case). If I am downwind, waaaay too fast, pulling to idle, and keeping the nose up will bleed off the speed...some physics must rule here.
If I was really smart I'd go to altitude, and mark down the rpm for each trimmed speed. For now, I've noticed that if I pull back to about 1600 in the pattern, I'll eventually hit 80 kts. in level flight.
On final, if I am too high, it's a bit counterintuitive, again, have to overcome some bad habits I learned......pulling BACK on the stick makes her come down like an elevator! Huge difference in descent rate between 68 kts IAS and 63!
As long as I keep my eye on the numbers, I can control this glidepath with power, and pretty much land where I want to.
Without power, lowering the nose, accelerating to 70kts, extends the glide.
( just describing this, I see I have to go out and practice a bunch more to really prove these theories...and that's all they are.....)
Lotsa guys will chime in here about flaps and slips etc.....that's why there are thick books written on aviating, right!?!?!?

Slowing the plane down enough for flap deployment was one of the hardest things to do in the Diamond DA-20 (my trainer), but moderate throttle and up elevator for a second or two helped bleeding off the speed to hit the number. I'd always prefer a high, steeper final, but the DA-20's rounded fuselage doesn't present a lot of drag when pitched into "airplane oversteer." In training, I had the luxury of a lot of runway?.2800' or so.

BobTurner said:

I know of no rule prohibiting a US CFI from giving you currency training in your airplane. If you wanted training toward a rating (instrument, for example) then you'd have to go thru the alien flight training rules, which are a mess.

If you fly anyone elses E-AB aircraft they will have to loan it to you for no compensation, or hold a LODA (waiver) allowing them to rent it for transition training. You should ask direct questions about insurance coverage, too.

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No problem having a US CFI give you dual instruction in your airplane, as Bob has stated. Last year I gave Ivan Kristensen some refrersher training in his airplane while he was in Florida for the winter. I agree that you should make sure your insurance covers getting dual instruction in your airplane, from an American CFI, while in the US. I doubt if it will be an issue.

flyboy1963 said:

Without power, lowering the nose, accelerating to 70kts, extends the glide.
( just describing this, I see I have to go out and practice a bunch more to really prove these theories...and that's all they are.....)
s:

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I wouldn't call it a theory. Once you are slower than best glide speed, any further slowing (nose up pitch) will reduce, not increase, your glide distance.

jimbo said:

Besides pulling back on the throttle am curious to know what techniques you use to slow down in the pattern. I keep finding myself entering the pattern too fast and pulling back on the gas isn't enough sometimes.

Jim
RV9a phase 1

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You can always do a high G 360, that will burn off the speed but the best thing to do is slow down way out and enter the pattern at around 110 kts or less. Of course, this is for a -9 with a FP prop.

As for the OP's question. I did my transition training in the right seat of a friend's -6.

flyboy1963 said:

I am investigating doing some training after about 50 hours in my -9a.

....

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Perry I am probably missing something. Do you have 50 hours logged in your 9A? Are you looking for advanced training? If not, just go to an altitude and practice anything you want you are already competent pilot.

Eye are reel komputint!

Vlad said:

Perry I am probably missing something. Do you have 50 hours logged in your 9A? Are you looking for advanced training? If not, just go to an altitude and practice anything you want you are already competent pilot.

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...well, you would think so, but it's pretty easy in a -9 to fly to the next airport, for gas & pancakes, about 50 times, over the 6 years I've owned, and not get very competent!
I need to up my game quite a bit, so that I am comfortable taking my family and friends for a ride, that may end in a challenging crosswind or weather situation.
( yes, flying every other day..... like some of you..... would probably help quite a bit!)
thanks for all the feedback guys!

jimbo said:

Besides pulling back on the throttle am curious to know what techniques you use to slow down in the pattern. I keep finding myself entering the pattern too fast and pulling back on the gas isn't enough sometimes.

Jim
RV9a phase 1

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I fly downwind at 1700 RPM, about 95 knots. Abeam the numbers, pull the power to idle, hold nose up until speed bleeds off to 83 knots to lower flaps. Throttle back to 1200 rpm. I hold 70 knots in turn to base then slow down to about 60 knots on final. To High, slow down a little more. To low, add power.

JSOliveira said:

I fly downwind at 1700 RPM, about 95 knots. Abeam the numbers, pull the power to idle, hold nose up until speed bleeds off to 83 knots to lower flaps. Throttle back to 1200 rpm. I hold 70 knots in turn to base then slow down to about 60 knots on final. To High, slow down a little more. To low, add power.

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The only problem with this is that the top of the white arc is 90 mph (78 knots).

This is about the same technique that Mike Seger teaches for a fixed pitch 9 which is:

-On the 45, RPM 1500 to reduce speed to 110-120 mph then 1800 rpm to maintain altitude.

-Abeam the numbers, pull power to idle, hold level to slow to 90 mph ( top of the white arc) then 4 seconds of down flaps.

-1200 rpm, start decent and trim. Maintain 70-75 mph.

-Full flaps on base. Hold 70-75 mph.

-Chop power when the field is made. Flair and grease it on.

I often read that people say the 9 won't slow down. I really haven't had a problem with that. I make sure that I don't barrel in to the pattern for starts. Not only does that help me slow down, it better matches my speed with most other aircraft in the pattern. I also adjusted my idle on the low side. This helps a lot too I would imagine.

I pull power abeam the numbers (typically already at about 110 mph max) and never touch it afterward unless needed. I typically pull up the nose to get under 100, drop full flaps and shoot for 63-65 mph for the rest of the descent. I find that the 9 slips nicely if you give it full rudder, and will drop pretty well (not like a 6 or 7 but still drops). I'm flying an IO360 FP Catto. As has already been said, if you pitch it up, your airspeed will decrease and descent angle will increase. With a 44 mph stall speed (flaps), you can pitch up a lot before worrying too much about getting in trouble.

To answer your original question, most any of the RVs will react similarly so training in any of them will be applicable. I spent time in an RV6A and 9A as well as Bob Mills' Super Six and all provided some new insights.

Greg

Greg Arehart said:

I pull power abeam the numbers (typically already at about 110 mph max) and never touch it afterward unless needed. I typically pull up the nose to get under 100, drop full flaps and shoot for 63-65 mph for the rest of the descent. I find that the 9 slips nicely if you give it full rudder, and will drop pretty well (not like a 6 or 7 but still drops). I'm flying an IO360 FP Catto. As has already been said, if you pitch it up, your airspeed will decrease and descent angle will increase. With a 44 mph stall speed (flaps), you can pitch up a lot before worrying too much about getting in trouble.

To answer your original question, most any of the RVs will react similarly so training in any of them will be applicable. I spent time in an RV6A and 9A as well as Bob Mills' Super Six and all provided some new insights.

Greg

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This is exactly how I fly.my -9. (60 kts when heavy and 55 kts when light.)

Once trimmed I try to fly the entire pattern w/o touching the throttle.

I have found that full flaps works best for all crosswind conditions as I want it going as slow as I can and 55 - 60 kts is a good margin above stall.

Transitioning to a climb on a go around is easy as putting in full power, pitching up, and retracting the flaps before exceeding Vfe. (I did the same when I had the 135 HP engine installed.)

ArVeeNiner said:

The only problem with this is that the top of the white arc is 90 mph (78 knots).

This is about the same technique that Mike Seger teaches for a fixed pitch 9 which is:

-On the 45, RPM 1500 to reduce speed to 110-120 mph then 1800 rpm to maintain altitude.

-Abeam the numbers, pull power to idle, hold level to slow to 90 mph ( top of the white arc) then 4 seconds of down flaps.

-1200 rpm, start decent and trim. Maintain 70-75 mph.

-Full flaps on base. Hold 70-75 mph.




-Chop power when the field is made. Flair and grease it on.

I often read that people say the 9 won't slow down. I really haven't had a problem with that. I make sure that I don't barrel in to the pattern for starts. Not only does that help me slow down, it better matches my speed with most other aircraft in the pattern. I also adjusted my idle on the low side. This helps a lot too I would imagine.

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i went back and looked. You are correct, 78 Knots for top of white arc.

I don't have a whole lot to add to the discussion, but I recently completed my transition training in an RV-7A (CS prop), then flew my RV-9A (fixed pitch prop) for the first flights. I'm a low time pilot and haven't flown at all in the previous 22 years. Getting back my currency in December in a Cessna 172 and then doing some solo flying, then flying 7 hours in the RV-7A was pushing my rusty skills to the limit. The -9 is much tamer than the -7 on approaches. The -9 really likes to glide, where the -7 comes down like a brick with the power off. Amazing difference with the longer wing and flaps. My first approach to landing at 70 Kts was way too fast and I floated half way down the runway. In the -7 we approached landings at 80 Kts and had to keep quite a bit of power on to keep the sink rate in check.

My most recent landing this weekend I was nice and stable approach at 63 Kts and I made a nice landing and made the first turn off. I'm still giving myself some extra speed, but I had about 10-12 Kts of headwind, so that helped with the landing distance. Slowing down hasn't been a problem, if you start at least 5 miles from the airport, slow down to 78 Kts, then get the flaps down a notch and trimmed for level flight in the pattern, add a notch on base and go full flaps on final seems to be working well for me. I don't have the wheel pants and fairings on yet, so that might be helping my speed stay slower. I'm still learning on every flight, and I like hearing how others are flying their -9's around the pattern.

I'm really happy with how this airplane flys!

JSOliveira said:

i went back and looked. You are correct, 78 Knots for top of white arc.

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For full flaps ... you get 15 deg at 87 knots in the 9.

We're usually at 100-110 on downwind. I like final at 74 knots for final (feels more stable and we have a lot of gusts and drafts - some idiot let them dig a pit at the end of the runway), over the fence at 60 knots usually with 20 degrees of flaps (helps keep the nose up). It's nice to have the CS prop.

Way fast!

Guys, the -9 is a great plane and one of its more amazing features is its ability to fly slow!

Get up high and practice some slow flight at 50 Kts or slower. Do some boxes on the horizon, slips, etc. so you learn how it handles at low airspeeds.

My approach to landing is really simple. Slow it down in the pattern, deploy FULL flaps abeam the touchdown point, trim it for 55Kts solo or 60 Kts heavy (and 60 may be too fast in some conditions), fly the entire pattern at that stabilized speed. That way the only thing you adjust on final is pitch and maybe power. (I try to fly my pattein such a way that once I pull the power off, I don't need to add power to make my touchdown point.)