Van's Air Force
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1G rolls
- Thread starter Geo
- Start date
Is your question academic in nature, or are you looking for advice so you can then give it a try on your own? The fact that you're asking means it would be a real bad idea to try it on your own. Get some basic acro training. That being said, I don't mind stating a rough technique, since you can find this anywhere, and Vans includes acro information in the RV builders manuals.
Without worrying too much about finesse and coordination, you can just pitch up about 20 degrees from normal straight-and-level flight, neutralize the elevator (very important) and apply full aileron. You can leave your feet on the floor. You'd complete the roll slightly nose down and gaining speed. Just neutralize the ailerons and level out. There are different types of rolls and a lot more too them technique-wise when it comes to doing them with finesse and precision. Again, don't try it on your own. The basic non-precision positive G roll is about the simplest and easiest maneuver you can do in an RV. But you need a qualified aerobatic pilot with you on your first few to ensure you don't panic the first time you see ground in the wrong place, pause the roll, and try to pull out. That's a good way to pull the wings off.
Without worrying too much about finesse and coordination, you can just pitch up about 20 degrees from normal straight-and-level flight, neutralize the elevator (very important) and apply full aileron. You can leave your feet on the floor. You'd complete the roll slightly nose down and gaining speed. Just neutralize the ailerons and level out. There are different types of rolls and a lot more too them technique-wise when it comes to doing them with finesse and precision. Again, don't try it on your own. The basic non-precision positive G roll is about the simplest and easiest maneuver you can do in an RV. But you need a qualified aerobatic pilot with you on your first few to ensure you don't panic the first time you see ground in the wrong place, pause the roll, and try to pull out. That's a good way to pull the wings off.
Rvs roll better using 1/2 to 3/4 aileron input. Using full deflection will cause a buffet about 2/3 through the roll.
woodmanrog
Well Known Member
Please don't try any acro maneuver without a qualified person to lead you through it from the right seat. When we first stared doing rolls, my friend accidently pushed the stick forward and our heads hit the canopy so hard we knocked the canopy pins loose from the blocks in the rear. That WILL get your attention. I also had a friend do a "chicken" roll that ended up in a split S. We were amazed he didn't pull the wings off in the recovery.
That said, once you learn to do a roll, they are fun and pretty easy to do.
That said, once you learn to do a roll, they are fun and pretty easy to do.
avengingangel
Well Known Member
that reminds me... i took an experienced pp who flew a cherokee 6 300 for a spin in the back of my 4 once. I pulled a few rolls and loops with him in the back. Anyway a short while later asked him if he would like to try the stick from the back. All was fine until he decides as I'm talkin to him on the intercom that he would like to try a roll without telling me. he flipped the bird onto it's back and then froze,well after throwing me up in my harness with negative g input. i quickly chopped the throttle and took control but he surprised me and definitely a no no on his part. he told me later that it looked so easy but his reaction surprised him. Not used to seeing the ground upside down in his cherokee i imagine.lol
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JonJay
Well Known Member
Good advice by all....
Get that training.
You will find that aerobatics is all about managing energy.
RV's are clean enough that you can almost manage a 1 g roll without pulling much more prior to entry, if your good at it. However, it is far easier, and probably safer to pull a bit more, like 2g's, on entry, unload the force, then take advantage of it with a nice smooth 1 g roll ending up at the same orientation and altitude as you started.
If you just entered at 1g, level, its likely your going to end up nose down.
RV's accelerate very quickly when nose down.
Get that training.
You will find that aerobatics is all about managing energy.
RV's are clean enough that you can almost manage a 1 g roll without pulling much more prior to entry, if your good at it. However, it is far easier, and probably safer to pull a bit more, like 2g's, on entry, unload the force, then take advantage of it with a nice smooth 1 g roll ending up at the same orientation and altitude as you started.
If you just entered at 1g, level, its likely your going to end up nose down.
RV's accelerate very quickly when nose down.
don't worry!!!
All, rest assured I have NO INTENTION of "trying" anything in an airplane that I was not properly trained to do.
My question was simply to understand whether a super-smooth roll (like the ones you see in youtube where the pilot pours a cup of tea in a glass on the dashboard during the roll) requires a different technique than a "normal" roll.
That's all.
Thanks!
All, rest assured I have NO INTENTION of "trying" anything in an airplane that I was not properly trained to do.
My question was simply to understand whether a super-smooth roll (like the ones you see in youtube where the pilot pours a cup of tea in a glass on the dashboard during the roll) requires a different technique than a "normal" roll.
That's all.
Thanks!
avengingangel
Well Known Member
what really is a normal roll?
Yes different techniques are required. Basically, sure it's the same, roll the aircraft around on it's axis, however a precision roll or what i define it as requires a lot more input, including control of rudder and elevator throughout. you have to give a lot of inputs to maintain same altitude and heading through the finish. The entry airspeed is much more important also. There's just a lot more going on. Not to mention there are wings designed for this.
Otherwise for a relaxing roll basically just put your nose in the air a little and then use your ailerons to roll around your axis. i'd probably prefer a tea under these conditions than the other.lol . Well it's relaxing in an RV probably not so much in a cherokee.
Yes different techniques are required. Basically, sure it's the same, roll the aircraft around on it's axis, however a precision roll or what i define it as requires a lot more input, including control of rudder and elevator throughout. you have to give a lot of inputs to maintain same altitude and heading through the finish. The entry airspeed is much more important also. There's just a lot more going on. Not to mention there are wings designed for this.
Otherwise for a relaxing roll basically just put your nose in the air a little and then use your ailerons to roll around your axis. i'd probably prefer a tea under these conditions than the other.lol . Well it's relaxing in an RV probably not so much in a cherokee.
GEO,
I've heard of an,
Aileron roll
Slow roll
Snap or flick roll
Barrel roll
Never a normal roll...............
Find a good acro instructor in the Pitsburgh area and get 3 or 4 sessions and you'll be on your way. Things happen very fast when you get upside down and can get out of control in an instant. Aerobatics are fun when performed correctly which takes some training.
What you describe IS the type of roll most commonly performed in an RV or any other non-inverted systems acro plane. It's also the easiest to perform of all the roll types mentioned. But to get the tea to consistently pour STRAIGHT out, it just requires you to use the rudder such that the ball is centered. If you can roll into a steep turn in a coordinated fashion (ball centered), then you can do the tea trick. It seems very impressive to the uninitiated, but there's really nothing to it. You'd probably need to practice the actual handling of the tea pitcher more than the roll itself. You also need to keep +1G all the way around. All that's required is not unloading the stick. Keep the same trimmed-for-level-flight elevator position/pressure throughout the roll (after pitching up, of course).
You want a real challenge, do a perfect straight-and-level roll (no altitude/heading deviation) or a vertical (ballistic) roll where your wingtip slices across the horizon without changing pitch or moving up and down the slightest bit....and stop it precisely on a pre-determined amount of rotation (no rotating horizon on front of you telling you when to stop).
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Toobuilder
Well Known Member
There are books available that will tell you "how" to do aerobatics in far more detail and clarity than you will get on an internet forum. The upside is that you actually get the info you need and don't have to wade through the endless "don't do this or else" disclaimer. I understand that people feel a responsibility to "protect" their fellow pilots (and often with good reason), but sometimes I think we take it too far.
Aerobatic books have the same disclaimers....not "don't do it or else" as you say, but "seek instruction from a qualified instructor"....same as stated here.
JonJay
Well Known Member
Yep, and then do that as a "slow roll"
But you just lost all your tea!
You want a real challenge, do a perfect straight-and-level roll (no altitude/heading deviation)
But you just lost all your tea!
avengingangel
Well Known Member
well regardless on how we think we're going to accomplish this my biggest problem is I'm lacking a third arm to hold the cup.
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avengingangel
Well Known Member
ha, i just watched a fellow in an rv4 pour a cup of water. Simple enough.
The longer the distance of the pour the more precise your yaw control would have to be.
The longer the distance of the pour the more precise your yaw control would have to be.
humptybump
Well Known Member
1G roll == barrel roll
I always equated the "1G roll" with the barrel roll. However, my instructor teaches a slow roll.
Here is the Boeing 707 doing the "1G roll" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE
I always equated the "1G roll" with the barrel roll. However, my instructor teaches a slow roll.
Here is the Boeing 707 doing the "1G roll"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
Perhaps, but the books that I have were published long before we turned this into a "no sharp corners, airbag equipped, "Nerf" world"...
I always equated the "1G roll" with the barrel roll. However, my instructor teaches a slow roll.
Here is the Boeing 707 doing the "1G roll"
A barrel roll is a greater than 1G roll, since there's a looping component to it. But it is a positive G roll. "Slow roll" has generally come to mean the straight and level roll, which incidentally, is the only roll you can do without putting more than 1G on the airplane at any point before or after...but it is not a positive G roll, since you're -1G inverted. The "aileron" roll traditionally means the pitch up, neutralize elevator and roll, roll. It's 1G during the roll, but greater than 1G before and after. Technically, the "aileron" roll could actually be considered a barrel roll...only a barrel roll in which the looping portion is inconsistent (and minimized) during the time ailerons are applied.
Trivia - "slow roll" got its name in order to differentiate it from the original type of roll that was performed with rudder (snap roll). In the very early days, ailerons were so bad that the only way to roll an airplane was to snap it. As technology improved and ailerons became more effective, it was then practical to roll with aileron. Since the rotation of a proper snap roll is faster than an aileron roll in almost all airplanes, the roll using ailerons became known as the "slow" roll. It never had anything to do with deliberately doing the roll slowly. Most "slow" rolls are actually done as fast as possible.
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Most "slow" rolls are actually done as fast as possible.
Which can be pretty slow in some planes ...
humptybump
Well Known Member
thanks Eric - a slow roll definitely has a negative component to it since there is a period inverted when you push to keep on point. I did my initial aerobatics instruction in a super decathlon.
JonJay
Well Known Member
Very interesting
It must have been very early as my "vintage" aerobatic books define the slow roll as what it has become to be known today, a roll along the axis maintaining the same altitude and direction with a constant rate of rotation. Perhaps they re-defined "slow roll" somewhere along the line?
I know I choose to do them very slowly.
Of all the manuevers I do, I define my ability by the "slow roll". The coordination requirements are unforgiving and nothing feels better than executing it correctly. (PS - I only do +g manuevers in the RV with no invertd systems. I leave the "real" aerobatics to Bucker). Sorry aerobatic RV purists, I dont find RV's to be that capable, or maybe its just me. (flame on). I am sure a good aerobatic pilot in an RV would undo my average ability even in my very capable Bucker.
I wish I wasn't so "handed". I work hard to make sure I can do them in both directions but my lefties are so much easier than my righties.
Which brings up a point to those reading this with the intent to get training and practice (cya), try to work both directions so you dont get handed!
Trivia - "slow roll" got its name in order to differentiate it from the original type of roll that was performed with rudder (snap roll). In the very early days, ailerons were so bad that the only way to roll an airplane was to snap it. As technology improved and ailerons became more effective, it was then practical to roll with aileron. Since the rotation of a proper snap roll is faster than an aileron roll in almost all airplanes, the roll using ailerons became known as the "slow" roll. It never had anything to do with deliberately doing the roll slowly. Most "slow" rolls are actually done as fast as possible.
It must have been very early as my "vintage" aerobatic books define the slow roll as what it has become to be known today, a roll along the axis maintaining the same altitude and direction with a constant rate of rotation. Perhaps they re-defined "slow roll" somewhere along the line?
I know I choose to do them very slowly.
Of all the manuevers I do, I define my ability by the "slow roll". The coordination requirements are unforgiving and nothing feels better than executing it correctly. (PS - I only do +g manuevers in the RV with no invertd systems. I leave the "real" aerobatics to Bucker). Sorry aerobatic RV purists, I dont find RV's to be that capable, or maybe its just me. (flame on). I am sure a good aerobatic pilot in an RV would undo my average ability even in my very capable Bucker.
I wish I wasn't so "handed". I work hard to make sure I can do them in both directions but my lefties are so much easier than my righties.
Which brings up a point to those reading this with the intent to get training and practice (cya), try to work both directions so you dont get handed!
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
No flame from me... RV's are "sport" airplanes and do "fun" aerobatics quite well, but are certainly no substitute for an "aerobatic" airplane. Even compared to my Hiperbipe (which is far from a thoroughbred), the -8 comes up short. Fun, but different.
The comment earlier about the difference between a "snap" and a "slow" roll: not sure I can get my head around that one. The snap is a horizontal spin - the airplane is stalled, unlike any other roll. Perhaps it's like classifying a tomato as a vegetable, when it is technically a fruit?
I disagree with the description of a snap as a "horizontal spin". I think it's done mostly to give folks something to relate to. I feel the description is inaccurate, since with a spin, BOTH wings are first stalled (and stay stalled) and THEN autorotation is started by inducing yaw. Rotation occurs because of the difference in DEPTH of stall between the two wings.
In a proper snap roll, you do NOT exceed critical AOA (but come relatively close) before initiating the yaw that quickly stalls one wing only. Since one wing remains flying, aileron effects are different during a snap vs. spin. Partial in-snap aileron increases rotation, whereas in a spin it will slow the rotation a bit. I think this is the critical distinction between the snap and spin. However, spins and snaps DO share the fact that the roll is caused by an imbalance in lift between the two wings. But the dynamics of this imbalance are completely different.
When folks first started differentiating between a snap and an aileron roll (probably no later than 1920) I'd imagine there was not enough interest or knowledge regarding the aerodynamics for anyone to note that the aileron roll was a fundamentally different maneuver from the snap.
Actually, it could be that the story I mentioned regarding the origin of the terms is not actually true. I only recall it as something I read once that was written by a respectable aviation/aerobatic author/historian.
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
I'm certainly no authority on the theory, but a snap in my airplane is a sharp tug on the stick which sets off the shudder (stall), followed by a stomp on the rudder to start the rotation. The speed of rotation can be accelerated by unloading the backpressure once it starts. Ailerons are neutral from start to finish. If I do not get the stall before the rudder stomp, the airplane just does a really ugly, out of round roll.
Edit: Seems we're both a little right:
"...A snap roll is similar to a horizontal spin. It is an autorotation with one wing stalled..."
http://www.iac.org/begin/figures.html#Snap Rolls
Edit: Seems we're both a little right:
"...A snap roll is similar to a horizontal spin. It is an autorotation with one wing stalled..."
http://www.iac.org/begin/figures.html#Snap Rolls
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Are you truly stalling the airplane, or just pulling to the buffet? If you were actually stalling (exceeding critical AOA) first, that would be a spin.
It would also produce a very slow wallowing snap. Every airplane requires a slightly different snap technique, and some are more reluctant to snap than others. But in any case, you'll get the fastest and most crisp snap by pulling the minimum AOA (below critical) needed to get it to break. The timing between the pull, the rudder application, and the unloading of the stick is critical to getting a good snap. Pulling more AOA than necessary just kills energy, "buries" the snap, and makes the stop less crisp. You can also accelerate the rotation slightly by adding partial in-snap aileron. But it's not that important, since it's really driven by the stalled/flying wing differential. The added roll rate of the aileron input on the flying wing is relatively small. Though too much in-snap aileron could unstall the down-going wing and stop the snap altogether. It's a great feeling when you really hit one good...where the plane really explodes into the snap, and it stops at the precise angle you want like it hit a brick wall. Would be nice to get those every time.
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
Well, the good ones are "just" into the buffet, and that's what I shoot for. You are right, the timing is critical, and that's what is giving me the most trouble. I'm pretty comfortable with snaps in general; I just need to work on refining it down to getting them right, every time.
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
GEO,
Highly complex maneuvers!!!
Do you see why it is important to get some training...
Yes and no... Training is a good idea, but concerning the OP's original question the IAC has this to say (from the link I posted earlier):
...Aileron Rolls
"Aileron rolls are flown with the rudder and elevator in the neutral position during the roll. The aileron is fully deflected in the direction of the roll. This is the easiest of the rolls to fly."
"The aileron roll is started by pulling the nose up to 20 - 30 degrees above the horizon. The elevator is then neutralized and the aileron fully deflected in the direction of the roll. The controls are maintained in that position till the roll is completed. After the roll is completed the nose is usually 20 - 30 degrees below the horizon."
...Less "complex" than a many of the standard manuevers performed in the PTS. I'd say a forward slip to landing in a crosswind has a much higher skill requirement than a run of the mill aileron roll. (IMO)
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avengingangel
Well Known Member
I agree. If you made it into the air that day then surely you have enough skill for an aileron roll. That's with an rv or similar aircraft.
however it's a good idea to have someone else comfortable with a roll to be with you the first time you're inverted.
however it's a good idea to have someone else comfortable with a roll to be with you the first time you're inverted.
aileron roll
I have posted this before but it appears it needs to be repeated: years ago I met a gentleman who had been attempting to teach himself aileron rolls in a RV6. He split s'ed out of one attempt, exceeding both airspeed and G limits as well as coming perilously close to the ground. he felt the only ting that saved him was the constant speed prop. When he FINALLY remembered to close the throttle the prop helped. GET SOME TRAINING. WEAR A CHUTE.
I have posted this before but it appears it needs to be repeated: years ago I met a gentleman who had been attempting to teach himself aileron rolls in a RV6. He split s'ed out of one attempt, exceeding both airspeed and G limits as well as coming perilously close to the ground. he felt the only ting that saved him was the constant speed prop. When he FINALLY remembered to close the throttle the prop helped. GET SOME TRAINING. WEAR A CHUTE.
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
I think it's been said enough in this thread.
Airplanes, if flown badly, will kill you. We do get it.
But that fact should not preclude a rational discussion about flying a maneuver properly, should it? Should this discussion only concern those who are experts already (in which case, the discussion is pointless.)?
In the link I provided, nowhere does the description of a roll state: ?When inverted, panic, and immediately pull the stick to your lap in a misguided attempt to turn the world back upright again?. No, instead, it provides info on the proper way to perform a roll. It tells you what to do, and what to expect from the airplane. Correct information is valuable - I don't see how avoiding the information altogether furthers safety.
Would we avoid talking about flying an ILS to minimums on the chance that someone would be encouraged to do it without training? I think not. So what is the difference?
