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  #1  
Old 11-13-2011, 03:02 PM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
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Location: Locust Grove, GA
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Default So when is it going to stop?

Well, I hope I won't be banned for starting this thread, but quite candidly I am getting very annoyed with the flagrant rules violations occuring in 2 specific areas of our piece of the aviation world: obvious building for hire and multiple people in the aircraft during Phase I fly-off period. Most recently we have had another accident with people seriously hurt during Phase I. This stuff is impacting all of us, and unless we start policing ourselves, we are going to get help that we don't want or need.
As a DAR I specifically go over the Limitations with every builder/owner. I can't tell you the number of times I left knowing nobody cared, and know for a fact of at least 3 aircraft that I licensed and they immediately put 2 people in the aircraft for the first and subsequent flights.
I won't get involved in licensing the aircraft I know are built from the ground up under contract. Sorry. There's this little ethics thing we sign when we get appointed as a DAR.
And whether we think so or not, it is affecting all of us, from insurance premiums to the continued perception that Experimental aviation is dangerous. Many companies I have worked for allow flying in Standard certificated aircraft, but not Experimentals. Quite honestly, I feel safer in my RV-10 than some certified aircraft because of the fact that I built it, am familiar with it, and can afford it. And I am getting tired of hearing from friends and family about another RV-10 that crashed or door that came off, when almost every single one could have been prevented. Just go down the list and there are some common themes: rushing to get completed, rushing to take-off, owner unfamiliarity, etc.
I believe we have an obligation, and I know in our politically-correct world anymore it is getting more difficult to call out the violators. But some things are certainly obvious to a fifth grader. Why aren't they obvious to all of us?
I am not going to start calling out "violators." You know who you are, and the rest of us know who you are. During my 35 years of flying I have called out a number of risky aviators, and it wasn't fun. Most of them aren't with us anymore because they chose to continue with their antics. It's been hard to watch.
I am writing this because this segment of the aviation world which I dearly love is getting hard to watch any more.
So I ask all of us: When does it stop?

Vic
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Vic Syracuse

Built RV-4, RV-6, 2-RV-10's, RV-7A, RV-8, Prescott Pusher, Kitfox Model II, Kitfox Speedster, Kitfox 7 Super Sport, Just Superstol, DAR, A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor, CFII-ASMEL/ASES
Kitplanes "Unairworthy" monthly feature
EAA Sport Aviation "Checkpoints" column
EAA Homebuilt Council Chair/member EAA BOD
Author "Pre-Buy Guide for Amateur-Built Aircraft"
www.Baselegaviation.com
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  #2  
Old 11-13-2011, 03:33 PM
Bevan Bevan is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BC
Posts: 1,698
Default Never.

Because you can't fix stupid. Maybe Darwin's theory can limit it. When will drinking and driving stop? It's about personal responsibility. Yes it's hard to watch. I agree that we need regulations for the safety of others. We also need to help guide each other through dangerous situations such as building practices and first flights etc, but some will just not listen. I would hope that the feds see through human nature and not penalize all with a broad brush for the actions of a few. I may be dreaming here, but we are all still driving a whole lot of cars despite the actions of quite a few of us.

Bevan
RV7A not flying yet (getting ready to hang the engine)
Enjoying building (all 10 years of it), learning and will eventually fly putting everthing I learned to the test.
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  #3  
Old 11-13-2011, 03:40 PM
131RB 131RB is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 307
Default FAA ?

Vic,
I agree with some of what your saying but not all of it. We already have an agency in place that makes the rules for our community. They are the same agency that is responsible for enforcing the rules. They also know the people who are violating these policies, they do it in plain site. So if they dont care why should anyone else? In many cases the planes built for hire are of a better build quality then the average Joe builds. I dont think we need to be pointing fingers at one another for everything we dont agree with. I have my own personal guide lines that I follow and I dont have a problem sharing those with people in my flying community, but ratting one another out in my opinion is not the way to handle things.
Ryan
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  #4  
Old 11-13-2011, 03:46 PM
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kevinh kevinh is offline
 
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Location: San Mateo, CA
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 131RB View Post
I agree with some of what your saying but not all of it. We already have an agency in place that makes the rules for our community. They are the same agency that is responsible for enforcing the rules. They also know the people who are violating these policies, they do it in plain site. So if they dont care why should anyone else? In many cases the planes built for hire are of a better build quality then the average Joe builds. I dont think we need to be pointing fingers at one another for everything we dont agree with. I have my own personal guide lines that I follow and I dont have a problem sharing those with people in my flying community, but ratting one another out in my opinion is not the way to handle things.
I agree. When I see someone breaking into a house, I don't call the cops either!
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  #5  
Old 11-13-2011, 04:01 PM
aerhed aerhed is offline
 
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Location: Big Sandy, WY
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Default

Geez Vic, I dunno what to say to make it better. I remember a Berkut who's first flight was Cali to Jackson hole. Wheels folded on the landing. I remember the local hotshot at a grass field who's wife would drive him to the aiport cause he was a drunk driver. Every time he got out of his vette the beer cans would roll out with him. Remember the movie star that landed on a highway by mistake and gave away his 12 pack so he wouldn't get busted? I know a San diego lawyer who has ground looped literally dozens of times, has wrecked half a dozen times (that I know of) and has had his license yanked a couple times and he just keeps on keepin' on. It's been said here before, you can't fix stupid. There's also that added attraction to homebuilts by those with outlaw natures because they think there are less rules. Couple years ago the keynote speaker for the flying physicians wrecked his banana on his way to their annual gathering because he was 90 years old, hadn't eaten for 2 days and got so hypoxic he didn't have the strength to turn the spigot on his O2 bottle. I say, do what you can and let natural selection take it's course. Sucks, but there it is.
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  #6  
Old 11-13-2011, 04:01 PM
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Mel Mel is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 131RB View Post
Vic,
I agree with some of what your saying but not all of it. In many cases the planes built for hire are of a better build quality then the average Joe builds.
The regulations state that this is an "Amateur-Built" classification. We don't get to "pick & choose" which regulations we follow and which we don't.
If you want an aircraft that is "of a better build quality than the average Joe builds", then you need to look for another classification.
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Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century. Over 1,000 certifications accomplished.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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  #7  
Old 11-13-2011, 04:30 PM
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Andrew M Andrew M is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Secluded Lake,Alaska (AK49)
Posts: 359
Default Holding my ground

I have had a few "cowboy" clients. The most effective approach for me is to let them know that unless what they are doing is really stupid and or involves innocents, I probably won't go taddle on them, but if I am asked, I am not going to lie for them either. I won't put my A&P at risk either. The influence of friendship generally is more effective than presuming to have authority (moral or legal) over them. People will change because the want to (because I have their confidence and trust) or they have to. I would rather let the legal authorities reason with unreasonable people, they are better equipped for it. Most times it is possible to keep my friends while drawing a line in the sand, usually they come around if I don't push it. Other times it's best to let them go.
When will it stop? I think it's just like maintenance. It's something to keep on top of. Thank goodness for my friends (and this forum) who have provided me with what I need, in a way that I was open to receive. It has made me more conservative, and much more aware.
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  #8  
Old 11-13-2011, 04:42 PM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
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Default

By the way, guys, for clarification I have never called the FAA or anyone else. Nor do I entend to. I've been man enough to speak to the offenders in person when it presented the opportunity. I don't intend to call anyone in a position of "authority." I think WE have the moral obligation. Period.
And, sorry, I am right there with Mel. The excuse of "it's better built than I or the average Joe can do it" doesn't hold water. As a matter of fact, the areas that we are actually allowed (encouraged?) to get help are in the critical areas: engine, avionics, etc.


Vic
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Built RV-4, RV-6, 2-RV-10's, RV-7A, RV-8, Prescott Pusher, Kitfox Model II, Kitfox Speedster, Kitfox 7 Super Sport, Just Superstol, DAR, A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor, CFII-ASMEL/ASES
Kitplanes "Unairworthy" monthly feature
EAA Sport Aviation "Checkpoints" column
EAA Homebuilt Council Chair/member EAA BOD
Author "Pre-Buy Guide for Amateur-Built Aircraft"
www.Baselegaviation.com
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  #9  
Old 11-13-2011, 08:52 PM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vic syracuse View Post
Well, I hope I won't be banned for starting this thread, but quite candidly I am getting very annoyed with the flagrant rules violations occuring in 2 specific areas of our piece of the aviation world: obvious building for hire and multiple people in the aircraft during Phase I fly-off period. Most recently we have had another accident with people seriously hurt........
.........I am writing this because this segment of the aviation world which I dearly love is getting hard to watch any more.
So I ask all of us: When does it stop?

Vic
Vic,

The problem lies within the rules governing what we do. It is not a clear black and white issue.

I am not all that familiar with what is going on with "building for hire" except companies and/or individuals are advertising their services, doing it with someone signing off required paper, and the FAA is accepting it as legitimate. Why else would it continue?

With regard to more than one person in the airplane during flight testing, my operating limitations state:

"During the flight-testing phase, no person may be carried in this aircraft during flight unless that person is essential to the purpose of the flight."

That leaves an awful lot of wiggle room on the issue. Has the FAA defined "essential to the purpose of the flight"? I don't think so.

I know of a recent local first flight where a CFI accompanied the builder on the flight. Who is to say his presence was not "essential to the purpose of the flight"? From a safety and practical point of view most would agree it is OK.

Yes, there have been accidents associated with phase one flight testing and more than one person in the aircraft. But that extra person did not contribute to the accident, he/she simply become a statistic for being there, whatever the reason they were there.

There are lots of loop holes in this business.

One that bothers me is ANY licensed pilot can fly Young Eagles. I am almost 73 and could drop dead for any reason, any day, and it is perfectly legal and am encouraged to fly Young Eagles. I won't do it. Nor will I take up a passenger who is not a pilot unless they come crawling on their hands knees for a ride. Not passing judgement on anyone else, but those are my standards in that matter, to each his own.

I understand your frustration, I see pilots doing dumb things on a regular basis. But those observations and conclusions are from my perspective and most frequently met with disagreement if made known.

I agree with you but I don't see your message as making much difference. It is personal vent on your part. About the only satisfaction you will see is thoughtful guys will agree. It will end there.
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  #10  
Old 11-13-2011, 09:04 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Default

Here is one vote for moving Vic's post to Best of the Best.


I am frustrated by the attitude that pilots and builders within our community should be able to choose to break rules/reg's without anyone else calling them on it.

I would probably agree if I was sure that what they were doing would not likely hurt anyone else and would not have an impact on me.

The problem is, a lot of choices people make do hurt innocent people, and do have a impact on me...
I have said it many times before, but I will say it again...

The way the government deals with regulation/rule non compliance, is to make more rules and regulations. Period.

If this attitude impacts you as far as your profession or ability to make a living, sorry. If what you are doing has a potential to impact my and everyone else's freedom to build airplanes, find another way to run your business.

Disregard for the required crew members rule is a whole different subject... In 22 years of involvement in this industry (personally and professionally) I have yet to hear a valid reason for carrying a second passenger during phase one testing of an RV.
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