Should I build an RV?

I hesitate to even write this as it might be taken by some as sacrilege, but having perused these forums for the last few months, I think you can handle it. Perhaps even relish it (we'll see). I am a new private pilot (48 yrs old) with around 130 hours total time, in the process of instrument training (goal - 1st quarter 2009). I have looked at the options for renting, buying commercial built, building exp., and am VERY intrigued with the experimental route. I have toured the factory and flown in the 260hp prototype. I am an engineer so I am not at all intimidated by the project but tend to analyze things in great detail to minimize surprises. However, in trying to make my decision, I have yet to run across a comprehensive comparison of 4-seat airplanes, including the RV-10. I have tried to do it on my own, but it seems like it should be out there somewhere. I'm pretty sure any reasonable person who has looked at building has done the same thing. I would like to compare all performance and specs of the RV-10 with a 182, Cirrus, 206, etc. - including cost to buy or build. I'm interested in cruise speeds w/approx. fuel burn, landing distances, ceilings, climb rates, useful load. I have dimensions off the various websites, but some are stingy with the greater details I want.

My first question is:
Does anyone know of a credible comparison of this sort? I think it is a reasonable question to compare performances in detail rather than just say it will make you "grin." (although it did!)

My second question is:
Assuming it takes me a couple years to build my RV-10, is it a good airplane for me when I should have at least 200 hours by then and an instrument rating.

Your thoughts appreciated.

signed -
Bryan
(Very impressed with everything RV, but not yet an acolyte)

More

I should add that it would be nice to add in some of the more reliable 4-seat experimentals. Also, I wasn't real clear that I am looking at 4-seaters only.

Bryan

Try this link: http://www.myrv10.com/FAQ.html

This is from Tim Olson's RV-10 website, one of the best out there.

One thing you need to ask yourself is do you really want to build or do you want to fly? If flying is more your thing, then I'd recommend buying vs building. At the very least hook up with your local EAA chapter and/or visit a builder if you haven't already to see if it's really your cup of tea.

Interesting question.....

douglassmt said:

Does anyone know of a credible comparison of this sort? I think it is a reasonable question to compare performances in detail rather than just say it will make you "grin." (although it did!)

Click to expand...

You will have to weigh the credibility of the comparison yourself. The reason I say this is I don't think you will find a commercial publication that will compare the -10 (or any other RV for that matter) to a certified aircraft. Even the EAA has an interest in the companies that produce them. There's huge money at stake, if they were to show one in a better light than the other. I don't think they would even say the RV-10 is the best 4 seat kit available. The Bearhawk is a really nice 4-seater aircraft as well, just different. You wont see a side by side comparison in their magazine anytime soon. I do think you will find several here that have flown them all and can give you some guidance but even then, if you find them here, they're a fan of the -10.

RV's pretty much sell themselves as builders look for aircraft to build. Cirrus sells to people that aren't really looking for a project. Really two different types of people. I know some even look down their nose at "experimental" or "homemade" aircraft, even if the RV will blow their doors off in both performance and quality.

I hope that you get lots of responses to your questions as I am very interested in the results as well. Don't get me wrong, I have no interest in the 4 seat certified (store bought) aircraft but I would like to see what those that have them have to say about the same points you brought up.

Thanks

Wow. thanks for the initial feedback. I will check out the website. Keep the tips coming if you have any more. I am definitely inclined to build ---- then fly! I just want a good dose of realism. Part of the attraction to RVs is the support group like this and the obvious fact that so many people like them. The longevity of the company is also a huge plus.

RV-10 vs. other 4 seat airplanes

First let me tell you a little about my flying background so that you can take my 2 cents worth for whatever value it might give you.

I am a 62 year old 1800+ private instrument rated pilot. My first five airplanes were as follows: Three C-182's, a 260hp Bellinca Super Viking, and a 180HP C-177 (all 4 place airplanes).

I ran a jump operation and had zero logged pilot time when I started my training in the jump airplane C-182. Prior to being introduced to the RV World I had less than 3 hours in airplanes that I did not own. In between ownership of airplanes I attempted a couple of times to rent airplanes for week long family vacations but the minimum daily hours they wanted me to put on the rentals didn't justify the costs in my opinion.

I was without an airplane when a friend offered me a ride in his RV-6. I was hooked and bought a completed RV-6 and put 300 hours on it prior to completing my RV-10 build.

I would never go back to ownership of a certified airplane as the operating costs and upkeep is at least three times the price of owning an experimental, even one you did not build.

In addition, I have a state of the art IFR glass panel in my RV-10 and will also have a state of the art IFR glass panel in my RV-7 which should fly next spring.

There is no way anyone could justify the costs of upgrading any of the certified airplanes I owned to an IFR glass panal. The costs of such upgrade would exceed the cost of the used airplane.

I can own a brand new Experimental airplane for less than half the costs of new certified airplane and about equal to the cost of an older certified airplane with a six pack non IFR panel. Naturally, an older certified airplane is also going to have much higher annual expense, probably on average 10-20 times the cost of a new experimental.

The next question becomes one of whether you build or buy an experimental. Building an RV-10, for a first time builder, without a really good helper that will work as much as you do will probably take you five years working 20 hours per week. You should be able to shorten the build time down to three years if you go the quickbuild route.

I have over $150,000.00 out of pocket expenses invested in my RV-10 quickbuild and was able to get a really good price on the engine, prop, and panel. If I would have had to pay full price for a new engine, prop, and panel built for my RV-10 it would have increased my investment by at least $35,000.00.

Van's Aircraft build price projections is extremely conservative and do not contimplate an IFR glass panel.

Before you start a build, I would suggest that you join the local EAA chapter and find somebody that is building an RV and ask if you can help to gain some first hand experience and get a better idea if building an RV is really something that you want to take on.

Best regards

First, Welcome! Most of us started here in a similar fashion--trying to figure out if building was really for us. And hey, don't let being an engineer dissuade you--many builders here have overcome worse

You present an interesting idea. Good comparisons are hard to find and would be much appreciated. RM gave a good reason why they are so scarce. But beyond the numbers (and IMHO numbers are about the best we can hope for in realistic comparisons) there are things you may value more than I that will never get a mention. Objectivity vs. subjectivity. I don't really like climbing out of my 9A; a Cardinal is certainly easier. But it isn't a really big deal to me and the 9A flies so much better.

Keep in mind Van's goal, Total Performance. The -10 won't be best at everything, but it will do everything well. Try to get a flight in a -10 and see what you think. I was within months of flying when I got my first ride in ANY RV! I really don't think that was my smartest move, but I just never had the chance. If you like what you experience, welcome to the club. Start pounding them rivets!

Bob Kelly

Wow Russ... great post!

Wow Russ... great post!

I'm just starting my 10 and your post is still echo'ing in my head... I keep saying to myself I need an experienced, motivated, mentor... and then I keep just following the directions inbetween watching kids and stuff.

I'm a member of my locall EAA, and had the tech advisor over once, but I still wish I had a good mentor!

It is a daunting task... building and airplane, and an RV-10 is pretty involved for an RV! I'm just glad my day job is flying so I don't have to worry about the build or stay current question!

Build...

People have done comparisons. I compared to the nth degree... I still have spreadsheets that have items such as cost to build, fuel flow, and so on.
First and foremost though, you really need to define the mission. Until then, it won't do any good to start comparing.

At this time in my life (and it will change when I get older) I am mainly interested in flying longer distances, with 4 seats, and at faster speeds.
There are only a handful of kits on the market that meet that.

1. VANS RV-10. Enough said.
2. Lancair. Expensive, well known, light composite.
3. Glasair. Well, eliminate them as sportsmen is really a 2 +1.
4. Velocity. Nice..but I don't personally want to have long take offs and landings.
5. Team Tango. Not very well known, great folks, but insurance would have eaten me alive due to the fact only two or three four places flying.

After that...the list seemed to be compromised of either companies with great products, but fewer planes flying, or just simply unknowns. I'm sure I am missing a few other well knowns..I looked at virtually every kit manufacturer on the market...but they were eliminate for various reasons..such as speed, or support.

If you are looking for the characteristics of speed, good performance, and so on...stick with Vans. If you are looking for blazing speeds, and cost isn't a big factor..go with Lancair. If you are looking for fast speeds with a great safety record...stick with the RV-10, or Lancair ES. Lancair is notorious for a poor safety record with their other hot rods.

If you are looking for just good old fun in a four seater, then that opens up many many more manufacturers. Jabiru instantly comes to mind. Relatively low cost, VERY low fuel burn, high wing, performs very much like a 172. As a low time pilot, that may be something to consider.

I would also highly recommend taking the composite build course and the sheet metal course at EAA. You will learn in both, and just because you go with one versus the other doesn't mean all is lost. For example, there is some composite work to be done on an RV 10. What you will learn is what you truly like in the build style. Go down to your local airport, join your EAA chapter...start networking with folks who are currently building.

After I did ALL my comparisons...hands down, the RV-10 was the route to go. The deciding factor for me was the cost. However...just because I decided to buy the RV-10, doesn't mean that's how the story had ended.
That being said, as I was conducting my search, I ended up finding an ES for an incredible price, and it included most everything I needed, engine, prop, EFIS, you name it. Now is a good time to buy a used kit, as there are more and more on the market.

Trust me though, this won't be my last. I know in retirement I will want to fly floats (done it once, it's a blast), go to the boonies, and so on. Beings I won't have kids to take, the Sportsmen would likely be the plane of choice.

And if I don't end up liking the ES as much as I think I will...I will be going the 10 route in a few years for sure.

Keep em coming

Wow, thanks to Russ for a VERY good overall summary. And bgrandorff for some more good info. As for mission, I have defined it as well as I can, and the RV-10 seems to fit: 4 real seats, long range with good speed, STOL, decent useful load, economic to own and operate, IFR panel (as much as I can afford).

I have flown in N410RV at the factory and toured the factory - very impressive, but not pretentious or flashy - and their long history speaks volumes. I am also planning to meet with a local RV-10 builder (complete) and quiz him and fly with him. I am intrigued with the idea of taking the Synergy Intro to Building and Empennage courses to get started. I will definitely join EAA if I do this project. My old college roomie is now head of Scaled Composites, and thinks very highly of the RVs, so that is a big plus.

Great input all. I am self employed, have a GREAT shop to build in (2500 sf), am almost empty nested, have a fairly supportive wife (we'll see), and am not afraid of big projects - my work is all big projects, mostly long term. Sooooo.... I am inclined to make the commitment. A few more blanks to fill in, keep the ideas coming.

Bryan

Build the -10!

Hi Bryan, you really should build the RV-10. You will not regret it.
When I did my first flight I had 250 hours and was just finishing up my instrument rating. I did have 10 hours of transition training with Mike Seager in the -10 and a few more hours in a -6A as well. For my first flight I felt very comfortable with the RV-10.

Here is some data that I put together early on. Maybe this will help. This was data I compiled so I'm not sure how credible it is. I put this together in 2002 or 2003 when I was making the same decision you are.
Every plane has its trade-offs with the RV-10 having the least in my opinion.
I can land slow on grass strips in Idaho, rough strips in Arizona, cruise at 170 knots to Oshkosh and burn as low as 9.4 gph and get 21.1 mpg.
To go much faster or much slower I have to start making some huge trade-offs.



I laugh at this slide now. This was back in 2002. You can build a very nice RV-10 for $150,000 and the Cirrus is now over $500,000.

More Data

More Data

Pretty thorough Scott!

Bryan,

If you want to see another RV going together and the build/decision process for me, come over to Townsend. I don't know of any -10's around here, but a few 6's, and 7's.

I think the Stevensville EAA chapter 517 is fairly active(tell Steve Rossiter howdy).

I got a chuckle as we have a few things in common:
Montana, I'm lowtime pilot, 47yr old, kids gone, RV builder, first name->Brian, and here's a twist->my middle name is douglas.

volume

The RV 10 has nearly the same interior volume as a C182

Jaypratt said:

The RV 10 has nearly the same interior volume as a C182

Click to expand...

The RV-10 is 48" wide in the front and 46" wide in the back. The C182 is only 42" wide in the front. I think the RV-10 has much more volume.

N104XP

Scott -

Thanks for the encouragement and thorough comparison. I had some of those numbers but not all. I also sent you a private message in response to your great posts on travels. Coincidentally, I have the picture of your RV-10 on my computer wallpaper from the Van's website. Tell me about your building experience roughly - number of hours, total time, family support, help you got.

I think I also saw somewhere that you are an engineer, so we both have the same "handicap." Seriously, while that might be a handicap for some, I think it is a plus as I have always been a very hands on engineer.

There is a nice completed RV-10 not far from me in Western MT. I have contacted them and am trying to arrange a visit. Thanks for your input.

Time to build.....

douglassmt said:

My second question is:
Assuming it takes me a couple years to build my RV-10, is it a good airplane for me when I should have at least 200 hours by then and an instrument rating.

(Very impressed with everything RV, but not yet an acolyte)

Click to expand...

The one thought I had reading your thread is it will only take a couple of years to build if you keep at it. Beware of it becoming a chore.

I have built a -9a ands a -4 and both took quite a bit longer and I am retired. I had something else to fly while I was building so I did not feel the pressure. People have built RV in around 90 days but there might be other things in your life you want to keep up with....a wife perhaps.

I am absolutely not saying dont do it, just think to yourself what if it takes 4 years.

Good luck.

Visit Blue Sky Aviation in Lewistown Too

Doug, since you are so close when you come to visit Brian in Townsend you guys should fly over to LWT and see Noel Simmons at Blue Sky Aviation, he has built something like 26 RVs, he has been helping me with my 6A.

LWT

I have been to LWT and met Noel. Coincidentally, I flew to LWT on business and the chopper pilot I was flying with mentioned that there was a guy on the airport who builds nothing but RVs. So I walked down and met Noel, had a quick look around before returning to MSO. Nice guy, nice facility, obviously experienced. I may have another conversation w/Noel before I build, and may buy some of his stuff, but I can't afford to have him help with the whole thing or buy one from him. He made the comment that he can't do a pro build on an RV-10 for less than $225K or $235K. For that, and not being the builder, I'm not much better off than buying late model commercial built.

By the way - Steve Sampson - thanks for the reality check. That's is exactly what I need. I have thought about that and am OK with a potential 4 year build or whatever it takes, but I REALLY don't want it to take that long for a number of reasons.

Thanks for all the responses, even if I don't acknowledge each one. I can tell you my wife was impressed with the number of thoughtful, thorough responses I've received in 24 hours or so. Impressive.

Bryan Douglass