Another Panel Layout Critique

I posted my panel design a couple of days ago in the Dynon/GRT comparison thread and based on feedback have since made some changes. It is pretty close to "there" but I wanted to ask again for final critique before I start carving metal. I'm hoping there's some folks that weren't following that other thread that might weigh in here.

My mission is IFR "light". I'm in Southern AZ so the only IFR I'm likely to fly here is training, IMC in AZ pretty much means stay on the ground. However I will fly to California regularly and the marine layer there is my issue. I don't intend to plan for enroute IFR or approaches to minimums (or even near minimums).

I am certain I'll fly more hours getting the rating and keeping current than I will actually using it, but I'm OK with that as I believe it will make me a better pilot and I want the flexibility to plan for flights that might require penetrating a layer.

I want my panel to include:
- dual axis autopilot
- dual screen efis/ems (solo from right or left)
- IFR GPS
- single panel comm
- single panel nav (vor/loc/gs)
- TIS traffic
- handheld backup GPS + XM weather (tied into panel)
- handheld backup comm (tied into panel)

Here is my latest plan, click for larger image:


Notes:
- this is Van's stock panel, I'm planning on having it water-cut
- those are GRT Sports and will have the ARINC option
- that's a Garmin 430W + Garmin 330 Xpdr + TruTrak DII VSGV (pic probably not 100% right)
- GRT EMS (EIS 4000) will be mounted behind panel so only the display and the 3 buttons will show
- that's a Garmin 496 on ball-mount movable to either side and still tied in (pic is a 396)
- setup for solo right or left, I'll solo right mostly
- sticks have PTT only
- Icom A6 + all Headset/Mic Jacks just aft of fuel valve
- LRI is homebrewed and totally electron free
- elevator trim tied into trim monitor, manual aileron trim
- all lighting switches on right side are off to the left, on to the right, top one for panel is actually a dimmer knob

I do have a couple specific questions that some of you might be able to help with:

1. Does the EIS 4000 have an alarm/warning light or should I wire one into the panel?

2. Is the TruTrak "control wheel steering" a function that is not on the AP head already, meaning do I need the separate switch? If so, I'm thinking I should add a panel pushbutton? If it is optional, what are your thoughts on its utility?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

George

1. Does the EIS 4000 have an alarm/warning light or should I wire one into the panel?

Yes it has one.

2. Is the TruTrak "control wheel steering" a function that is not on the AP head already, meaning do I need the separate switch? If so, I'm thinking I should add a panel pushbutton? If it is optional, what are your thoughts on its utility?

Yes, you need another button ... it's very helpful if you could put in on the stick.


Also, you may want the autopilot under the GRT, it would make it within easy reach during flight

Consider replacing the TT with a Dynon D10A and using it as the AP.

Dynon Autopilot

Can you share with us a little more about your autopilot and recent software release? Mainly on the technical side.
I have been in the computer hardware and software business for quite some time, and first generation products are usually quite buggy (heck even second through third gen).
What have you folks done for safety, reliability, and sanity checking with the autopilot?
How much testing in the field has been completed?

While you are "advertising"..when is that snazzy LED synthetic vision coming out ;-)
I know...I know...sometime in 09.

Avidyne was supposed to be 09 on their SV and now they are saying 2010.
Beat em to it and you will gain another customer ..(oh wait I have the D10...another sale that is.)

Comments on your panel layout

I like the separate autopilot / efis system that Trutrak / GRT setup offers. It is a little more money, but I don't want both to die at the same time.

Look at the Trutrak flatpak. That is what I installed (below my left screen) and it fits nicely. I have a switch to feed the autopilot (ARINC) from the EFIS or directly from my GPS.

I put the start and mag switches together and located my flap switch where you have the start switch. This will be handy for left seat operations (go-around, etc), but may not be so ease to reach from the right.

frazitl said:

I like the separate autopilot / efis system that Trutrak / GRT setup offers.

Click to expand...

I was not suggesting he delete the GRT units. The Dynon EFIS was a replacement only for the TT AP. This would still be an independent system from the primary EFIS. No reason you can't have two EFIS systems in the plane.

As for AP testing:

We have hundreds of flight hours completed. We have been flying in airplanes since January '08. We have also had servos running almost continuously here since then, at full power, in worst case situations. demonstrating much higher mechanical reliability than other servos we have tried.

Over the last 6-ish months, we have been in about a dozen beta test planes, of all different aircraft types, and different pilot styles and skill levels. It's working very well.

If you know Dynon software releases, they aren't buggy. We do a huge amount of ground and flight testing. We don't release products until they are ready, and if you ask our beta testers, I believe they will tell you it's ready too. Look at our web page and you'll see that we don't release software until it's fully documented, which tells you about the kind of time we put into a software release. Many other companies lag years behind the software in documentation.

We do lots of sanity checking. We actually have bank, pitch, coordination, turn rate, and altitude in the system, unlike most AP's, so we can do actual turn rates, actual bank limits, actual g limits, and we know your actual altitude, not just how far you are from when you engaged. On top of that, we talk bidirectionally to the servo, so we know the actual position of the servo, the torque it's putting out, and if it has reported any failures. Other AP systems don't even know if a servo is connected to the head unit.

The other AP's sold into the experimental market are good as well, so I'm not trying to knock them. I just think we've produced a superior AP at a much lower price. I guess time and our customers will tell.

dynonsupport said:

We do lots of sanity checking. We actually have bank, pitch, coordination, turn rate, and altitude in the system, unlike most AP's, so we can do actual turn rates, actual bank limits, actual g limits, and we know your actual altitude, not just how far you are from when you engaged. On top of that, we talk bidirectionally to the servo, so we know the actual position of the servo, the torque it's putting out, and if it has reported any failures. Other AP systems don't even know if a servo is connected to the head unit.

Click to expand...

The Dynon AP system certainly is impressive, especially at its pricepoint. Just for clarification and fairness, the Trio Avionics Gold servos have bi-directional communication with the control head and also monitor several parameters such as torque load and G-loading.

grjtucson said:

1. Does the EIS 4000 have an alarm/warning light or should I wire one into the panel?

2. Is the TruTrak "control wheel steering" a function that is not on the AP head already, meaning do I need the separate switch? If so, I'm thinking I should add a panel pushbutton? If it is optional, what are your thoughts on its utility?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

George

Click to expand...

1) Yes it has a light, but we usually don't hook it up, because you can run the same alarms from the EFIS and they are much more "configurable" and easier to "inhibit"....plus, the pull the same alarms as the EIS...your call...but I'd push for the EFIS to drive the warning over the EIS by itself. More parameters, more trend alarms, etc.. The EFIS has a unbelievable amount of user option tweaking available throughout the entire thing - we just encourage people to do that. Also, if going with the red light, might I respectfully suggest something a tad bit more elegant than the light supplied by GRT...

2) Yes - put one in. The CWS part is more of a convenience thing, but it's nice to have quick servo disconnect.

Cheers,
Stein

grjtucson said:

2. Is the TruTrak "control wheel steering" a function that is not on the AP head already, meaning do I need the separate switch? If so, I'm thinking I should add a panel pushbutton? If it is optional, what are your thoughts on its utility?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

George

Click to expand...

The "control wheel steering" is a function on the control head. A rotatory switch you use to select heading (track) or rate of climb/decent. You do need a separate switch (push button) in order to disengage the autopilot with reaching up to the head and turning it off. I recommend you put that on your stick.

Huge Thanks!

Golly, lots of feedback. Thanks to you all, even to Dynon for turning the thread into an extended sales presentation :O

I received ideas and feedback by email and phone too, so here's a summary and some changes. I'm hoping this thread will provide some lasting value:

- Control wheel steering IS different than the on/off button on the AP head. Per my "PTT only on the stick" plan, I've added a button above the throttle. A trusted advisor (and panel shop owner / vendor) uses the same on his panel

- I'll use the internal alarm on the EIS and EFIS. I can always add a panel light if needed, though I suspect I won't.

- Sorry Dynon. I like you're stuff but I'd prefer a TruTrak autopilot, I have already installed their servos and don't feel like selling them to use yours, and your cost breakdown seemed to ignore the need for your add'l two panel units I believe I'd need for ARINC. Also I suspect the integration between the GRT's and your autopilot would be challenging at best whereas GRT's and TruTrak autopilots work extremely well together. You'll note I have a switch to feed the AP from either the 430W or the GRT's. Finally, it'd be tough to shoehorn another EFIS into my design and I've already got 4 screens to look at.

- As to using a flat pack AP and putting it under one of the EFISs, I rather like it where it is and need the space under the EFIS as whoever is soloing will get the 496 on their side. I see your point and appreciate the idea though. The flat pack may not be off the table as I still have to check for interference with the tip-up canopy reinforcement kit for those top three instruments.

- I got a suggestion that I skip the ambidextrous design and settle on one side or another. I understand your thinking but I want the flexibility, and my arms are long enough and I can see well enough that the whole panel is useful to me from either seat. Finally, the switch grouping and positions make total sense to me and aren't so unique as to be difficult for someone to learn. Heck, my current plane is a Decathalon with most switches above and behind me and no way to simultaneously have hands on the starter, throttle, and stick. I'll be OK with my plan.

- I did decide that huge elevator trim switch from Ray Allen is too big so I've swapped it out for a mini Mom On - Off - Mom On. It looks better, should as well or better, and is still a different from factor than the flap switch which is important to me. For those that thought that big black rectangle was an indicator, sorry, it was a rocker switch. I'll use the EFIS for trim indication and my eyes for flaps

- My trusted advisor suggested I buy an audio panel before he found out I already own the intercom and an audio mixer for it, he then suggested I put a switch to kill the 430 Nav audio. I've added the switch, but I just looked at the 430 manual and it looks real easy to turn off, or turn down the VLOC audio. Can anyone confirm? I'd just as soon control all audio from their individual sources, I've even thought of wiring both the 496 music and the panel jack into the mixer and ditching the panel switch. Thoughts?

Finally, thanks for all the feedback. I'm now shopping Tucson for water-jet, laser, and CNC milling services to quote cutting the holes. I know I could do it myself but this is one time I'm happy to contract out the work If anyone wants the graphics, they're at http://georgejenson.com/panel.php. If you want the Open Office Draw file, it's http://georgejenson.com/panel2.odg.

I have no doubt that the hardest work ahead is paying for all of this.

George

Click for larger image:

grjtucson said:

your cost breakdown seemed to ignore the need for your add'l two panel units I believe I'd need for ARINC.

Click to expand...

Just to correct any misperception, only the HS34 is required if you want ARINC. ARINC is not required to work with the 430 GPS, only if you want to use VOR/ILS from the 430, or get ARINC from another EFIS.

The AP74 is never required, it's purely a nicer UI. The AP76 will be required if you want to shoot full ILSes or do vertical GPS steering.

I can confirm the 430 has a dedicated NAV radio volume knob, and turning it to off is really easy. I don't think you need a switch to kill it.

Enjoy your panel!

Formats

George... you will most likely need and AutoCAD DXF or DWG file for the water jet cutting guys.

Can your panel detail output this format?

There is a place in Tucson that makes SW style outdoor copper lights. They would also do water jet cutting on the side, and were quite $$ reasonable when I last checked.

My problem was that the curves in my DXF file from a TurboCAD translation was made up from lots of very small straight lines and clogged up their PC... So I did my panel the old fashioned way with drills, circle cutters, dremel disks and files....

Another TurboCAD file worked on a CAD/CAM wood cutting project at a neighbors cabinet shop, so it is probably SW dependent at his end...

They were willing to check an input file though...I'll see if I can dig up their name....