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Riveting Assistance

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pavonijr

I'm New Here
I'm just starting work on the tail of my RV-8 and I'm trying to teach myself how to rivet on a few scrap pieces of aluminum - I'm having a few issues that I would love some advice on if there is some to be had:

1. The universal rivets are setting nicely on the "shop head" side of the metal, however on the "factory head" side of the rivet I am putting a horseshoe dent in the metal itself on a fairly consistent basis. The only things I can think of is that the rivet set is potentially the wrong size (although it looks correct), or the pressure in the gun is too high.

Any suggestions?
 
Keep relatively even pressure on the bucking bar and the rivet gun. What you are getting are called "smiley faces". Welcome to the world of sheetmetal. You'll get the hang of it I promise.
 
Get in the habit of counting 1-2 after you shoot a rivet BEFORE you take the gun off.

The mistake a lot of people make when they rivet by themselves is putting equal pressure on both the bucking bar and the gun...as if they're trying to squeeze the rivet. Don't do that.

Most of the pressure is on the gun side...the bucking bar...preferably cradled in your hand (having your fingertips extent around it allow you to keep it centered on the shop head... has enough pressure to keep it table on the shop head, but you're using the bar to form the head.

Keep just enough pressure on the bucking bar to keep it stable and against the head...but as you shoot, it's going to come off slightly before your pressure pushes it back onto the shop head....the rat-a-tat action forms the head.

All the while you keep pressure on the gun so it DOESN'T come off the head. When it does, that's when you get smileys.

Also make sure you're not using too much pressure.

You also don't have to blast it like a machine gun. You could do it slowly with a couple of taps at a time.
 
Well explained Bob.

One more thing to add - the parts you are riveting have to be stable. Clamp them to a firm surface (workbench), make them stable by any means then rivet.
 
Start with 40# of air for a universal rivet (2X gun). 35# for a 3-3.5 flush rivet. 1/8" set is all you will need for universal rivets on a vans kit.
 
Bob had a lot of great advice. What I found, in addition, is that it is difficult to do supported work by myself. If I must, I try to support the work in a vice or clamp as close to the rivet as possible, but standing 90 degrees to the work makes it difficult to keep the gun aligned. For preference, like riveting small parts, I clamp the bucking bar in a vice and manage the part in one hand while riveting downward with the gun, similar to back-riveting. Better still, it's a two person job, so that one person can keep the bar in position (without, as Bob noted, supplying undo pressure; let the gun do the work) and the other can concentrate on keeping the gun in position and alignment. After building the -6A, I can finally say I'm starting to get good riveting universal-head rivets - better late than never, eh? - but I still have had to drill out a few as I've worked on the -10. Just when I'm getting cocky and relaxed it seems I screw one up.
 
I've begun using the snap-socs, and found that they really help keep the gun stable on the rivet. Love em. Also, I had to touch up my set on the scotchbrite wheel, it was ground just a bit too deep and would almost always leave a smiley, before I fixed it up.
 
Thanks to all for the quick help and the websites. I managed to get a bunch set without the smilies and feel a lot better going into the actual plane - i'll keep practicing - thanks
 
I was finishing up some riveting today (I don't have many left to set. As with most of the plane, I've bucked and shot by myself most of the time, even at time when I couldn't see what I was bucking (I did most all of the wing skins myself.)

Anyway there was one point today when I finished a rivet and suddenly, an old image popped into my head. It was Larry Bird launching a three-pointer, turning and heading down court even though the ball hadn't reached its zenith yet. He knew it was going in by the feel.

Just as you should be able to keep a steady airspeed by sound of the engine, "feel" and wind noise, you eventually know when you've set a rivet properly just by the sound and the feel.

Ken Scott, married to a concert viola master, I believe, said once that musicians make GREAT riveters because of their mastery of rhythm and sound.
 
I got to do some riveting on a King-Air yesterday

I haven't started my -7 yet, but I got to do a little sheet metal work yesterday. One of our landing gear hinges was worn and the mechanics were replacing it yesterday. I didn't get to drive any rivets (giving a tour to some local third graders while they were driving rivets). I did get to do some drilling and pull some cherry rivets though. I even got/had to drill some bad rivets out. The guys at work thought it was funny that the mechanics were sitting there watching me work, but I was excited and having fun.
 
Great Advice Everyone

I was having a terrible time riveting my rudder skeleton today, every other rivet needed to be replaced. I went to VAF and searched for "Riveting Advice". Found this forum and went back to the shop with a new found ability to rivet!:D
Thank-you all.
 
Riveting

In addition to all of the above great replies, I would recommend a tungsten bucking bar. This makes life much easier especially for a beginner. I got mine after I had done the empennage and wish I had it at the beginning.
 
David Z said:
What is the benefit of a tungsten bar vs a normal one?
Click to expand...

Hey David.

I know there are a ton of bucking bars threads out there that can be found by the search function, but I thought I would share my thoughts anyway. From one of my build posts:

After 8 rivets, all I can say is?WOW. I love this tungsten bucking bar. 8 perfect rivets. With the older, and smaller, bar I was using before, things were always bouncing around, and my hand was vibrating, etc. With this bar, it is so easy to rivet. I should have bought this at the beginning of the project. ​

There is a pretty good thread on it at http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=54194, but of course, I'll share my thoughts from there, too.

For me, the more important thing than making riveting easier, is that I now get better, higher quality shop heads, with less need for drilling out bad rivets. I imagine the difference may not be worth the price delta to someone (like Rick) whose non-tungsten shop heads were great to begin with.

I thought of it this way...

Being an amateur, do I want to spend $120 to instantly improve the quality of my shop heads throughout the rest of my project? Yes.


(Am I disappointed that my hardened steel bucking bar results aren't good enough on their own? Sure. Would the "ease" part still outweigh the price delta without the dramatic increase in quality? For me, it still might.)​

Your mileage may vary, but I've found tungsten to be more than worth it's price (or weight in gold...or tungsten) for an instant upgrade in riveting quality.
 
another thing to help chopping the rivet heads is to use marsking tape im not sure what you guys call it in the US. You only need 2-3 layers, when the tape gets a bit rough looking replace it.
Cheers,
 
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Tungsten

Tungsten (symbol W, atomic weight 183.85) is about three times the density of Iron (symbol Fe, atomic weight 55.85). Most cast bucking bars are ductile iron or steel. The tungsten bucking bar can be about half the size of an iron bucking bar and will still be heavier or have a higher mass. The effect of this for the riveter is that the tungsten bar is easier to handle, smaller so it is easier to manoever in tight quarters, yet still more massive so that it moves less as the energy from the rivet gun is transferred through the rivet into the bucking bar. Therefore more rivet gun energy goes into forming the shop head so the rivet needs fewer blows.
 
pavonijr...I see you are located in Goldsboro.

EAA Chapter 1114 holds a "builders night" the first Friday evening of each month. Builders gather and have a show-and-tell session from 6pm to 7pm. We bring parts to show off, or talk about "how-to" items. Then from 7pm till whenever, we show an aviation theme movie (with pop corn).

If you can make it this Friday, bring some of the items you are having trouble with and maybe we can help.

You can find directions on our chapter in Apex, N.C. web site eaa1114.org

Hope to see you Friday evening.
 
Density of Iron = 7.874 g/cm^3 ; Density of Tungsten = 19.25 g/cm^3. A tungsten bar is just under 2.5 times as heavy as an iron bar the same size.
 
Expensive

Those bars are expensive! Now I just have to go through and find which shape I think is most useful.

Are the tungsten bars generally harder than the iron/steel ones as well?
 
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