800# Gorilla sitting on the couch....

There seems to be a Gorilla sitting on the couch that no one seems to want to discuss.....

Stein alluded to my safety presentation in the Stall Spin thread and given that the recent past has been a little deadly, I thought I would accommodate his request and share one of the premises of the presentation that I give to Warbird audiences... We have a horrible safety record in the Warbird community and several years ago I was the Stand-Eval Chair at the CAF when we had a rash of accidents that threatened our insurability.. We had to do something and it fell in my lap. We had a safety standdown. Started annual safety training for all CAF pilots and I ended up taking it on the road. It applies equally to the RV world....

Before anybody gets wrapped up in the details of some recent fatal accidents, lets think about how we, as pilots, react to accidents. Let me be clear, this is not a thread about the details of the recent accidents.

Wilbur Wright wrote a letter to his father in 1900 that said a deliberately accepted risk was safer than ignoring or denying the risk. So lets talk about the Gorilla.... RV flying is dangerous. The bull**** we tell our spouses that the most dangerous part of flying is the drive to the airport is, just that, bull****.... John and Martha King call this "The Big Lie." If we can't be honest about this basic fact, then we are doomed to continue killing our friends or ourselves.

Flying, the way most RV pilots do it is dangerous. Formation is dangerous, Acro is dangerous, spontaneous low level flying is dangerous. You can tell yourself that you have it all figured out, and the way you do it, is not dangerous..... Hogwash... It is dangerous... in 2008 there were 10 fatal accidents in RV's... Does anybody think that is an acceptable number? For that number to change, we can't wish it down. Behavior must change... Some will want to look at the accident reports, but the problem is how we do that.

We read accident reports and look for the one thing that we don't do that the subject pilot did, then we feel vindicated and say, "There, see, that guy did XXX, I don't do that, therefore, I don't have a problem." Instead we should read accident reports and say, "That guy was smart, sane, and as good or better pilot than I am and he got caught, why couldn't that happen to me?"

Nobody ever got out of bed and said, "Today is a good day to kill myself in an airplane." Read accident reports looking for the links in the chain that you have done, or the mistakes you have made, instead of looking for the link that you perceive to let you off the hook.....

What this is about is behavior modification. Only if we are honest with ourselves about the risks inherent in our flying will we change behavior. That is hard to do.... My wife has been working on me to put the seat down for over 20 years and my compliance is still fairly low by her standards....

Once we honestly acknowledge the risks, then we can develop strategies to mitigate them.

That goes like this:
Identify the risk.
Rate the risk.
Rate the reward.
If the risk out weighs the reward stop.
If it doesn't, brainstorm ways to reduce the risk.

If we are entirely honest with ourselves about the risk versus reward, then like Wilbur Wright, we can accept the risk for what it is, or change the behavior.... Only then will the statistics change.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

Excellent post, Doug, thank you for taking the time to write.

There is something about RV aircraft that prompts good pilots to do stupid things. Our reputation and pilot population has suffered as a result.

Safety

An eloquent post Doug. Could your safety curriculum be ported to the RV community easily? And have you been successful in reducing warbird accidents? Thanks again. Bill

B25Flyer said:

Once we honestly acknowledge the risks, then we can develop strategies to mitigate them.

That goes like this:
Identify the risk.
Rate the risk.
Rate the reward.
If the risk out weighs the reward stop.
If it doesn't, brainstorm ways to reduce the risk.

If we are entirely honest with ourselves about the risk versus reward, then like Wilbur Wright, we can accept the risk for what it is, or change the behavior.... Only then will the statistics change.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

Click to expand...

Great post Doug.

Bill Dicus said:

An eloquent post Doug. Could your safety curriculum be ported to the RV community easily? And have you been successful in reducing warbird accidents? Thanks again. Bill

Click to expand...

Doug,

Great post! Can it be ported to GA, not just RV's?

While I was president of my local EAA chapter my biggest fear was that we would have an accident. Lucky for me our chapter is very helpful with inspections, first flight prep, etc. but we don't do much with regard to continuing flight operations.

Thanks again!

B25Flyer said:

Instead we should read accident reports and say, "That guy was smart, sane, and as good or better pilot than I am and he got caught, why couldn't that happen to me?"

Click to expand...

That's exactly what I think when I hear about some of the RV accidents, since almost everyone has more experience than me.

B25Flyer said:

Nobody ever got out of bed and said, "Today is a good day to kill myself in an airplane."

Click to expand...

Well, actually some have (9/11 and the kid in Tampa come to mind)

Thanks for the post.

Now that that has been said..

I really liked the comments about "There, see, that guy did XXX, I don't do that, therefore, I don't have a problem."

I for one have had the above attitude, which can only be said while one is STILL alive.

Now that that has been said, many of us will need to clean the back of our ears off, wash our faces and re-define what being a great pilot really is.

We need to think of safety as a necessary skill set and recognize it as a required personal asset for all pilots.

Do we fly differently when our buddies are watching, than when our Wives, Mom's, or children are watching?

Has the Jiminy Cricket in any of us expired, remember his motto, "Let your Conscience be your Guide."

Let us all live to fly another day. (safely)

Sam Buchanan said:

.....There is something about RV aircraft that prompts good pilots to do stupid things. Our reputation and pilot population has suffered as a result.

Click to expand...

I think this quote can also be attributed to Rozie....(I can't remember if it was him or Younkin that said it, but I believe one of them did - the beers clouded my memory)

"We all lose about 50 points off our I.Q. when we strap on an RV....so it's even more important to THINK"

...Or something along those lines. I'm paraphrasing of course, bit the sad thing is that it seems to be more and more true.

Cheers,
Stein

That post is soooooo over due.

I'd also argue there's a handful of former pilots that are still with us (non-fatal's) but inactive because of injuries sustained doing stupid things.

Quite honestly, I read a lot of RV related accident reports and I almost always say "That was stupid". Dead or alive, stupid seems to be the word I always use to describe the accidents.

What a refreshing does of reality! I think I'm going to print that one off and tape it on the inside cover of my logbook.

Well done.

Phil said:

Quite honestly, I read a lot of RV related accident reports and I almost always say "That was stupid". Dead or alive, stupid seems to be the word I always use to describe the accidents.

Click to expand...

I've had a few take-offs and landings where I said "Well, that was stupid." We're all going to do stupid things, the trick is to not do really stupid things and to learn from our stupid mistakes. If we want to be perfect, well, we ought to give up because we're not going to be. As others have noted, we need to focus on evaluating, controlling and accepting risk.

TODR

Thanks to everyone for the kind words.. To answer Bill's question, we have had some improvement in the Warbird world.... Last year was one of the safest years in Warbird flying on record.... If we can string a series of those together, I will call it a trend, but so far that would be wishful thinking....

The Warbird safety effort has moved to the Airshow industry (I serve on the ICAS safety committee) and where we are developing and implementing a Safety Management System for airshows and performers.... Talk about a tall order.....

With regard to moving it to the RV community, there is nothing to move... I did a presentation for the MN Rvators Wing this spring. I have a Rocket and it travels cheap, I have gone all across the country giving the Warbird presentation. I do it for expenses (and Beer of course).

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

I like this thread... The most immediate thing we can do is deal with what goes on in our own cockpits. I try to remind myself of this every time I climb in. Worse is that I'm getting to that point of accumulated pilot time (500hrs.) where some statistics show increasing complacency partly due to comfort in the seat. Luckily, I am usually just part of a two person "flight crew" in the cockpit. This forces almost every action to be previously planned, if only by a few minutes, and agreed upon. Any action that takes us anywhere near the fringes of operational safety, or even just out of norm, gets extra conversation and is rarely immediately agreed upon. So often it only requires that extra 30-40 seconds of consideration to decide against some action or take a "better" one. We've found that there are so very few situations in the cockpit that can't be given their quick briefing and consideration. Not to discount those instances that require immediate action, PIC must always be clear. This kind of "crew" concept holds true for our operations from engine start to shutdown. I have no doubt that we're way safer for it. If only to protect us from ourselves when about to do something "stupid". And if this sounds like I'm not having just as much fun as everybody else, you would be wrong .

Outstanding topic - Outstanding Post Doug! The real art of Flight Safety Education is to get the point across before the listener's eyes glaze over and their brain shuts down, and you obviously have a great talent for that. I hope you'll be at Oshkosh and we can meet - are you going to be giving your talk there? I woudl love to hear it!

I have been flying for a long time now, and love to observe folks at an airport when someone else makes a low, high-speed pass, or does something "showy" in the pattern. While many look and say "cool!", my reaction is usually "what a fool..."

You see, there are a whole lot more low-time pilots out thee than high time pilots, and those low-timers look to their "seniors" to set the example of how they behave - that's just how human society works. And when those seniors do stuff that they might be able to get away with but require skills the less-experienced don't have., they set the stage for people to go out and try to emulate ... and become guilty (in my mind) of creating an unsafe condition. If you want to do airshow stuff, get authorized and do it at airshows!

We have a saying in the space business "Mission Control - Making the Exciting as Boring as Possible for 50 years!" In our business, when things get exciting, people die. Boring may not be glamorous, but people come home to their families.

Paul

This is great thread.

Doug,

Is it possible for you to upload one of the presentation video on youtube? Or if you are planning to make a DVD/audio, when can we expect it to be on sale?

scard said:

.... Luckily, I am usually just part of a two person "flight crew" in the cockpit. This forces almost every action to be previously planned, if only by a few minutes, and agreed upon. Any action that takes us anywhere near the fringes of operational safety, or even just out of norm, gets extra conversation and is rarely immediately agreed upon. So often it only requires that extra 30-40 seconds of consideration to decide against some action or take a "better" one.

Click to expand...

I always involve the other person sitting in the CT (or 2 place glider), mostly for looking for traffic, confirming ATC instructions, frequencies, etc. If they're familiar with the airplane, we use the checklsits in challenge-response format, Yes, that's overkill in what is about the simplest airplane I've flown (no fuel pump, no mixture, only one fuel valve that has to be opened before you insert the key, fixed pitch prop, fixed landing gear, etc), but it gets both of you involved in the flight, thinking about what is happening.

It's really helpful when making decisions, what's happening with this weather, we're heading to an alternate so give me a heading, etc. Use all the resources at your disposal.

TODR

B25Flyer said:

...
I have a Rocket and it travels cheap, I have gone all across the country giving the Warbird presentation. I do it for expenses (and Beer of course).

Click to expand...

Doug - Where do you live? I'm sure many EAA chapters would be interested in having you speak at a meeting. I know ours would.

Thanks,

Ironflight said:

I have been flying for a long time now, and love to observe folks at an airport when someone else makes a low, high-speed pass, or does something "showy" in the pattern. While many look and say "cool!", my reaction is usually "what a fool..."

Paul

Click to expand...

Paul, glad you brought this thought to the table. Like you, I am really impressed (but in a most unfavorable way) whenever a pilot flies a high-speed low pass down a runway at a crowded pancake breakfast.

It seems unsafe behavior is indeed perpetuated by those who are supposed to know better. What I have observed more often than not, it is a high-time pilot doing the buzz job. We know this encourages other pilots to do the same because a rash of low passes will often result from the initial example.

Yes, this is usually written off as "pilots having fun". And some will respond by saying "when it gets to the point the safety police tell me what to do I'll just stop flying".

Tragically, some of those pilots have stopped flying..............

Risk and Reward...

I especially like that part of the original post. I flew my Bi-plane 200-300' off the deck of the river yesterday, something I do occasionally, admiring the people enjoying the waters, sunbathing, and, oh there is that one special beach that you dont let your children go to, but I digress.... I know that if I lost power, odds are the outcome would not be good, but I do it anyway, taking the risk for the reward of doing what I love. (I keep clear of people and property by the way, and a very vigilant eye for another aircraft enjoying the same thing.) Not exactly the safest activity in the world.
As I approach my 1000th hour, I still feel anxiety flying over terrain, on every approach and landing, and over my preflight preps. It is not a debilitating anxiety, more of taking a deep breath, focus, and sharpening of my thoughts on procedures, what if's, airspeeds, etc.... If I ever lose that feeling, I will quit flying.

B25Flyer said:

With regard to moving it to the RV community, there is nothing to move... I did a presentation for the MN Rvators Wing this spring. I have a Rocket and it travels cheap, I have gone all across the country giving the Warbird presentation. I do it for expenses (and Beer of course).

Click to expand...

As a testimonial, I attended Doug's preso to the MN Wing and came away with some real gems of wisdom - it was definitely time well spent and was one of the more useful safety seminars I have attended. Thanks Doug!

Amen

I can't tell you how many pilots have asked me how to do an aerobatic manouver without ever being shown..

My normal reaction is..I'll gladly show you, and then go onto how one should NEVER do such things without proper training and my personal lower limit is 4000ft.

Remember the inverted spin that pounced on me from nowhere?..If I had done that at 2000' I wouldn't be here right now!..And yes I have been trained on IS's.

Frank

It is a slow day at work so I will take the bait on the low passes..... My point is this, think it thru and make an informed choice. Making a low pass at your home airport is a much different risk than seeing a pretty girl sunbathing in the along the beach and zooming down into an unfamiliar area and hitting a powerline or cellphone tower.

I participate in some very high risk aviation activities. Flying old airplanes, low altitude airshow acro, formation etc. The point of my speech is to assess the risks, and then accept that risks you choose, deliberately rather than just acting impulsively.

One caveat I always make is this, when I talk about doing something stupid in an airplane, I am almost always speaking in the first person.... I am most definitely a sinner, not a saint, and part of the reason why I do this is to hold myself accountable. I did not say that I was perfect or that it is easy, but just like the toilet seat down thing, I am trying to do better.....

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

A Thought About Why It's Difficult

The folks responding positively to this thread seem, to me, to be inclined to think about safety and to seek to improve their own behaviors. Fine. I like it even though it's a conversation among the choir, so to speak.

Maybe with warbirds, given the control over the events, you can get everyone to listen up. What can we do about GA pilots in general and RV pilots in particular who maybe should be listening but are not? Thinking, as he goes by, that he's a fool may be correct but does nothing to change him.

That's what is really hard - having a "counseling session" with someone who may rightly feel he has nothing to learn from you. In my case with a little less than 1,000 hours in 30+ years, there are a lot of hotshot pilots out there who understandably don't look to me for advice. They really have much better skills, both physical and mental. And they know it.

Of course, I'm an old pilot because I'm not a bold pilot, but nobody thinks it's his own, personal problem. Good judgment is hard to sell, but the reputation of GA is our mutual concern and the recent efforts to keep us from some airports will only get worse if we don't clean up our act.

I don't have a good answer for the problem I'm identifying and I admit that. I hope, though, that some of you may have.

hevansrv7a said:

The folks responding positively to this thread seem, to me, to be inclined to think about safety and to seek to improve their own behaviors. Fine. I like it even though it's a conversation among the choir, so to speak.

Maybe with warbirds, given the control over the events, you can get everyone to listen up. What can we do about GA pilots in general and RV pilots in particular who maybe should be listening but are not? Thinking, as he goes by, that he's a fool may be correct but does nothing to change him.

That's what is really hard - having a "counseling session" with someone who may rightly feel he has nothing to learn from you. In my case with a little less than 1,000 hours in 30+ years, there are a lot of hotshot pilots out there who understandably don't look to me for advice. They really have much better skills, both physical and mental. And they know it.

I don't have a good answer for the problem I'm identifying and I admit that. I hope, though, that some of you may have.

Click to expand...

You're absolutely right on a couple counts. First,the folks who most need the education are the least likely to admit it, seek it, or receive it. That's human nature, not peculiar in any way to aviation! Second, it is very hard to walk up to someone and tell them that they might need to change. Dealing with individuals is always difficult, and getting 100% compliance on a behavioral issue is essentially impossible.

But what you CAN do is to change the cultural norm - and the internet is a useful place to work slowing towards that norm. It is rare when an Individual can change another individual - but the Group can, by changing it's values, get more individuals to behave to a set of norms approved by the group.
The majority of people want to be accepted by the group. While there will always be a few outlaws and renegades, we can improve the overall compliance with the norm by not approving of those things that the group does not approve of.

OK, sorry, I was descending into the kind of "psycho-speak" that always puts me to sleep. Bottom line - we, as a group (I am talking of all General Aviation) define what is acceptable behavior. If we idolize those who do things we don't like, we don't help the situation.

Let no one think I haven't done my share of dumb things with airplanes - most of them would have affected me directly, and no one else - in my years of flying. And I am not immune from doing them again. But if I think they were dumb, I certainly have the responsibility of trying to keep those less experienced from making the same mistakes that I have!

Paul

Doug,

Have you considered giving your presentation in one of the forums at airventure? I'm sure they would find a place for you, considering that this is the one topic that, IMHO, is most lacking in the Experimental Aviation world.

One of the things I have heard repeatedly from folks that have analyzed the accident data of experimentals in comparision to regualre GA flights is that the causes are different (or at least in different proportions) between the two groups. For example, IIRC, there are a lot fewer "VFR in to IMC" deaths, and a lot more "Low Altitude Aerobatics" deaths.

I would love to see a more thorough discussion of these types of accidents, most importantly WHY they happen. If I can't understand what makes a smart experienced pilot make what appears to be an obviously bad judgement call, what chance do I as a complete newbie have?

I have always wondered why there are so few (if any) articles in the Experimental Aviation mags (i.e. kitplanes and sport aviation), that deal with these unique aspects of accidents in Experiemental Aircraft. I truly believe that the information is there, but people (and major organizations) are afraid to speak about it too much publicly for fear that it will make the experimental aviation community "look bad". It is as if there is a fear that if folks admit that there are problems, we might get hit with greater government restrictions/scrutiny.

A TYPICAL YEAR????

I am not an RV builder or owner or pilot. I have been flying homebuilt airplanes for about 48 years. I did a quick scan of the accident reports for 2007. I chose that year because I felt it would be the most recent year where most of the reports would be final. I chose the Beech Bonanzas as a comparison aircraft because the speeds are comparable. I did not read the Bonanza reports. These are fatal accidents only:
Seven total RV in US plus two foreign and one Rocket
13 Bonanza total.
The RV's break down as follows:
1. Loss of control
2. Loss of control non precision approach, IFR flight
3. Hit airport sign on attempted landing, stall/spin on attempted go around
4. Stall/loss of control on takeoff.
5. Low level acro.
6. Stall/spin traffic pattern
7. Stall?? engine problems, loss of control.
NONE of these appears to be related to intentional low flying except the one acro accident.
Every one of these accidents was preventable. My belief is that if all these pilots had taken a ten hour course in a Pitts with a strong emphasis on low speed maneuvering/stalls/ and all spins, at least half of these accidents would not have happened. Oh yes, about half the time in the Pitts should be with the airspeed covered up, and there should never be a ball bank indicator in the front seat of a Pitts.

Sometimes the Gorilla Wins

I like the observations about flying is dangerous, aerobatics are dangerous and formation flying is dangerous. It seems to me that any reasonably conscious pilot would know those things. You could add air racing is dangerous. I do not fly aerobatics and I do not fly formation but I do fly and I do fly in air races. Every single time I get in an airplane I am focused on that particular flight and as the flight progresses I evaluate each phase of the flight for its requirements , quickly plan my action, start doing it, critically evaluate the results and fine tune what I am doing to improve the chances for a successful outcome. My performance is seldom perfect and I mentally record the imperfections as part of my experience base for the next flight. I have an inner pride in being a pilot and I want to enjoy the experience but it is a very private thing with me. I do not know my limitations but I do not go outside personal "fear boundaries" on a whim. I know from personal experience and from what I read that certain things can hurt me and my loved one, the airplane, the lives and property of others and I avoid them.

There is a vast difference in pilots and most will never achieve the level of skill and awareness of you and others that come by it professionally. I have about 5,000 hours of ASEL VFR and IFR bottom feeder flight time starting out as strictly a pleasure flyer. In 1989 I owned and airplane and I had a 4 hour daily commute to work from south Orange County to Pasadena in the Los Angeles area. I figured out a way to use my plane as part of that commute and I did it day and night for 15 years. I learned from that, that rigorous experience makes the greatest difference in ones safe flight prospects and you can never take safe outcome for granted.

You can raise the level of sensitivity to the risks and you can identify specific actions to avoid that may pop up in time of crises to avoid a tragedy. Perhaps that is your objective - I wish you every success.

I visited a friend in Prescott on my trip to California from our home in Arkansas last week. He has built several Thorp T-18s, an RV-6A and his most recent Sonex with an AeroV engine. On his first flight in the Sonex the engine quit at about 400 ft AGL and he had no smooth unobstructed place for landing. He put it down in the best place he could see and walked away from it without serious injury. He told me what kills pilots in this situation is the uncontrolled desire to pull back on the stick and hold it in the air - resulting in a stall and loss of control. He is working on solving the engine problem and repairing the plane to get it back the air. He is 90.

Bob Axsom

Excellent topic and great post, Doug..

I've been really watching this thread with enthusiasm because of my line of work...Ag. There really is a correlation and that is ...ATTITUDE!

When we descend below treetop/powerline level, you just can't imagine the obstacles we have to avoid and still get good coverage of the plants!! Doing this at 140 MPH and 5-6 feet altitude takes a very alert individual and total dedication to the earth outside the cockpit. What most spectators don't know is that an awful lot of planning has gone into that particular flight and any and all possible obstacles/scenarios have been previously addressed to ensure that my wife doesn't file a claim!!

In GA, we have a lot of guys who don't fly very often for whatever reason. We also have those same guys who so badly want to go fly do some whoop-de-do's because it "feels so good", like a recent RV-8 roll on takeoff into the ground...whether it was for feel good or show, doesn't matter. The outcome was bad regardless.

Our attitudes before a flight should almost be one of silent reverance and meditation of how we are going to go about it considering the circumstances that day. Are there thunderstorms enroute? Fog perhaps? Low fuel? etc, etc.
Nighttime and no flashlight?

As Doug and others have pointed out....flying recklessly will bite you hard. Even thorough pre-flight planning is no gaurantee because mechanical gremlins appear totally unexpectedly and we need a way out. A disintegrating muffler on a Cherokee blocking the exhaust at night almost did me in but I managed to get to the nearest runway.

Regards,

Pierre,

When I was trying to figure out what we would do at the CAF I looked to the NAAA (Nat'l Aerial Applicators Assn) PAASS program.

You guys got a FAA grant several years ago and developed a safety system that involves education, training, and mentoring. It seems to be a good program and we used it as a guide for what we needed in the Warbird Community.

One thing that became clear in the CAF journey was that some people wanted to "fix" the problem. There is no fix. This is like a 12 step program, it goes on for ever, no one is cured, and everyone must look at flying safely as a never ending, one day at a time situation....

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

Thanks, great write up.

Doug,

Thanks for writing this and getting everyone's attention. As an Army pilot we have to complete a "Risk Assessment" before every mission. It includes crew experience, crew rest, wx etc. It is completed by the PIC and in theory gets looked at by at least 2 other people to mitigate the risk. I have had a lot of friends die in aircraft accidents and sadly, 9 out of 10 could have been prevented one way or another.

I haven't read every reply, but most seemed fairly positive. We have classes similar to the one you conduct, at least monthly. We all know pilots have big egos and think it can never happen to us. Thanks again for getting everyone thinking about risk and risk management.

Terry

Dangers of the Enroute "Gaggle"

Doug,

Excellent and timely post, particularly with OSH flying just around the corner. I would also like to add a reminder about group cross country departures to far away destinations such as OSH. Avoid the herd syndrome. Don?t allow group pressure to press on when wx conditions, terrain, or fuel endurance factors exceed your personal experience level or limitations.

I am sure that most of you have heard your home airport horror stories about the testy situations group ?gaggles? have gotten themselves into. Some of the most common situations involve scud running or fuel quantity starvation.

Doug, several years ago, I had the pleasure of meeting you at Fleming Field. Thank you for all that you do for the CAF community. Is the P-51C back up and flying?

Regards,
Tom
Ex-XO CAF Air Group One, San Diego

Untrained = Dangerous

I like to talk safety, and totally agree we have a problem in the sport plane community. Very close to 100% of the incident/accidents I see in aviation are due to poor judgement.

One thing I see over and over AND OVER again in the RV community are pilots flying formation, doing low altitude maneuvering, and generally trying to look cool in their airplane. All I can think is how dumb/dangerous that is!

Take formation, for example: I flew and taught formation in the T37 for about 3 1/2 years. In all that time, the T37 squadron at Vance AFB had exactly ZERO formation incidents/accidents. ZERO!! Same for our low level training, same for our instrument training. Why? Because the USAF operated a tight training program administered by very well trained instructors. We didn't let any student fly formation unless he was ready. If he couldn't get ready in the alloted time, he went packing.

And how about us??? In all my RV flying, TWICE I've had fellow pilots in my formation try to kill me. TWICE. Untrained, they were, but didn't bother to tell me or to stay out of the flight. I've since learned.

The lesson here, to me, is: DO NOT attempt to do what you're not trained for. Yes, it IS dangerous - for those who think they're their own teacher.

End of rant.

800# Gorrilla

Doug, this is one of the finest. This brings up the past and one of the worst times in my life, is haveing to go to the home of the widow who has heard of crash on the radio, and seeing you instead of her husband. After 30 years it still haunts one to the core.

LOE 2009 Presentation ???

B25Flyer said:

With regard to moving it to the RV community, there is nothing to move... I did a presentation for the MN Rvators Wing this spring. I have a Rocket and it travels cheap, I have gone all across the country giving the Warbird presentation. I do it for expenses (and Beer of course).

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

Click to expand...

Any chance of bringing it to LOE 2009? I for one am willing to kick in some BUCKS for the expenses. I am betting the entire RV community at LOE would be willing of footing the bill.

Tom,

Thank you for your kind words.... The P-51C "Tuskegee Airmen" should fly in late June/Early July, and God willing, it will be at OSH!!!! It has been a long road, and flying it again will be a powerful day!!! Check it out here at www.redtail.org Feel free to press the "Donate" Button

If everything works, it will be flown at OSH by Brad Lang, son of a Tuskegee Airmen (and an airline pilot, but a good guy as airline pilots go ) How cool will that be? The son of an original Tuskegee Airmen flying a Red Tailed P-51..... Don Hinz will be smiling down on that day.....

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

Bill Wightman said:

snip....The lesson here, to me, is: DO NOT attempt to do what you're not trained for. Yes, it IS dangerous - for those who think they're their own teacher.
End of rant.

Click to expand...

Poor Judgement = Danger.

I'm lucky in that (2) of my RV buddies taught formation flying in the military - one AF and one NAVY. My formation training was done over the course of a year, using the same syllabus used by my buds. I believe I'm in the minority here, as most non-military RV drivers have to get their formation training through the various clinics that are put on by Stu, Kahuna and others who know how to do it.

Untrained, unbriefed formation attempts are an example of poor judgement and should not be encouraged. I choose to not participate in the large fly-in formation passes at OSH, even though I have a F.A.S.T. card and can do it, only because it's outside my comfort zone of acceptable risk (young kids, etc). Flying a 3-ship to breakfast with my well qualified formation friends is another thing for me. These flights are well briefed in advance, like the large fly-in overflights, and flown to the same exacting standards, but what sets them apart is that I'm intimately familiar with the people, planes and geography.

Poor Judgement = Danger. (that would make a good bumper sticker)

Safety and How We Follow-thru

I was out at my home airport changing the oil in my Wichita built bird this past weekend when a Korean War vintage Shooting Star took the active and began its take-off roll. I saw a very nice RV (rocket maybe?) coming in from the west and perform a break to land only to sidestep the warbird and take a postiion to "chase" (I guess?). Anyway, as I watched the events unfold, I thought it might have been a bit too much for this area....did look impressive but what if the pattern was full of trainees? Similar to when we go to Saturday fly-ins...low pass, impress the ladys...somebody stroke your ego...

I am not ratting on anybody that was involved in what I described...just be careful and think about others as well as your own well being please.

Live to fly another day.

Great thread...

Great discussion.
There is a Risk Assessment form that the Cessna Training center in Independence KS uses before every flight. At the bottom, after you've assessed about a dozen items is a statement in bold:
"Would you be able to defend your decision to the NTSB?"

Something wording to that effect would be a great placard to put on the pilot side of the IP like the "This aircraft does not comply..." one on the passenger side

Quote

Well said, there is a quote that I like to live by when I fly, but for the life of me cant remember where I picked it up...maybe from the Yeager Autobiography...?

"never lose your healthy fear of flying"

...it'll always keep ya on your toes.

800# Gorilla....

an observation.......
if we are indeed to police ourselves, we need the fortitude to stand up and accept the same crticism that we dispense.
I am just getting my wings after a long hiatus, so you are unlikely to find need to chastise me for 'hotdogging'...... but I fully expect that you will enlighten me when I do a lousy circuit, miss a radio call or position report etc.

At a recent Young Eagles type affair, one of the pilots ended his flights with a high-speed low pass, with steep pull-up at mid field, at our uncontrolled field.
At first I caught myself smiling at the tune of a healthy Lyc.....then looked around at the hundred or so onlookers, parents, and media.
Boy, is this the wrong place and time ......if ever! After 4 or 5 more times, I was getting pretty uncomfortable.
One of the pilots observing had the kahuna's to chastise the 'offender', and his feedback was NOT well recieved.

We'd all better get our heads out of the sand, and make safety and image a part of our daily routine, or 'they' will tax, insure, and regulate us out of the sky.
....and who will be to blame?

Gary,

I might be able to make LOE.... Lets keep in touch, the airshow season is winding down by then....

Another point worth discussing that Flyboy1963 brought up is empowering a friend to be your conscience. This is someone you trust enough to be honest if you get too big for your britches. All to often these relationships have the look and feel of enablers where you tell each other how good you are... Not useful....

Finding a peer you trust enough to be totally honest, and empowering them to critique, both your flying skill and your judgement is a pretty tall order, but can be a lifesaver.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

Wow!

flyboy1963 said:

an observation.......
<snip>
At a recent Young Eagles type affair, one of the pilots ended his flights with a high-speed low pass, with steep pull-up at mid field, at our uncontrolled field.
<snip>

Click to expand...

Was this done with the Young Eagle on board? That is in direct violation of the EAA guidelines.
I'm the YE coordinator for my chapter, and if one of our pilots ever did something like that, I would definitely have something to say - regardless of how it would be received. Knowing the folks in my chapter, there would be a crowd waiting for that guy when he landed. Good job to the pilot who spoke up.

RE:Sobering Thread

I am 62 years old with very low time in the left seat and only a few hours flying with a pilot that wears his RV7A like he was flying off the carrier deck in his by gone era A6........

4.5 years ago I started building my 7A with the thought in mind of really impressing friends and family with my great building skills but more importantly my great flying skills.

I just could hardly wait to be the first to fly my new plane..... be upside down.....roles...plus.......

But as I am now on the very edge of completing this plane I have enlisted the above mentioned RV/airline/Navy pilot to put that first few hours on my plane. Jokingly I have said, "isn't this kind a like allowing your best friend to test drive your honeymoon!!!!!

But as the following report will serve as an example. High Time Pilot, very familiar with the area, out for a grand look see of the surrounding beauty, and..........

["The man controlling the plane, 64-year-old John Austin, was a pilot with 30 years experience. His single-engine, fixed-wing plane was instantly recognizable around the community of Boulder, where he owned the Boulder Creek Canyon Ranch.

Friends say Austin had been flying in and out of there for three decades, but on Friday morning something went wrong, and the flight ended tragically near the Calf Creek Campground, about halfway between Boulder and Escalante.

"Everyone we talked to and explained we'd seen an airplane crash said, ‘We saw that plane. We saw it flying over the canyon,'" said Dean Roberts, who witnessed the accident.

Moments before the plane crash, the Garfield County Sheriff's Office received several complaints from nearby residents of a low-flying aircraft, which indicate the plane may have been purposely flying too low before it crashed."](KSL Web Site)

The rest of the report can be viewed here:

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=6645174

Ya know I could see myself in his shoes. Beautiful day, great life long friend to take for a ride, plane I had loved/trusted/flown for years, sight seeing over an area I had flown many times before......and.....just a moments in attention to the power lines that I knew were there. SAD ending to a beautiful day.

So thanks for this thread to bring me to my senses as to the stakes we place on the table each time we take to the air!!!!!!

Be Safe!!!!!!!!!!!

Frank @ 1L8 ....RV7A.... NDY

Frank,

I am sorry for the loss of your friend.... If you play this game very long, the list of friends you have lost will become very long.... It is another motivator for me to beat the drum.........

I have lost way too many friends, really good people to this game, and that it is difficult to resolve those feelings and those losses.... It makes no sense...

I don't have a good answer, there isn't one, but it is a reality in our business, and I have asked myself many times if it is worth it.... I keep coming to the same conclusion, that it is, but it i ask myself, does it have to be so deadly? I don't think it does....

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

Do the right thing!!!

Several years ago I went to a FAA sponsored safety meeting in Georgia. The speaker was outstanding. He discussed the accidents that happend in Georgia the previous year. ALL but one was preventable. A Piper doing loops and sheared the wings, another buzzing a house, flying into IMC by a pilot that wasn't trained, running out of fuel with get there itist, trying to make landing below minimums, and the list goes on.

His point was that every one of these accidents was a series of events that resulted in an accident.

Yes, what we do can be dangerous. It's up to you to fly safe. Practice, stay proficient, increase your knowledge base, use your head for something besides a hat rack, and most of all, don't let your confidence influence what you do such as bypass the check list. You only have so much luck in the luck bucket.....don't empty it.

How dangerous?

I looked it up several months on the internet and according to the source, in a recent year, there were something of the nature of 8.7 million car accidents in 1 year and 43,000 deaths on the road in the US. Seems like the same year there were around 1,800 aircraft accidents and 600 deaths (do not hold me to exact numbers please). I know, at lot less flights than car trips. Staying in the pattern is many times the risk, long distance trip is about the same risk as a car according to one statitician.

I am responsible for how safe I fly. Some other things I am thankful for such as I don't worry about a drunk pilot coming at me on the wrong side of the airway. I don't have to worry about a pilot running a stop sign at 10,000 feet or rear ending me while I'm waiting for the light to change. I don't have to worry about a 17 year old talking on the cell phone while putting on makeup and driving on the interstate at 80 mph.

In the past 6 months, I have flown 130 hours. Not once was I scared for my life. A little tense landing in winds 26 knots gusting to over 30. However, in the past month, while driving on the interstate to and from work, there have been 3 accidents within ONE car distance from mine and scares the pooh out of me at times. #1 - Young girl tailgating about 10 feet behind at 70, inpatient and pulled out to go around and hit the rear of a car that had slowed for the off ramp to exit (she was on the cell phone). #2 - I was stopped due to an accident and a car that wasn't paying attention hit the car that was stopped behind me. #3 - Multi car pile-up when a car in the fast lane hit the breaks hard since a cop was doing radar and they saw him when he they came around the corner. There isn't a day when I don't see a wreck on the side of the road to or from work.

I look at this way. I don't do acro or formation flying. It's not my cup of tea. I keep my plane in top shape and am anal about keeping things in top shape. I use a check list. I do more than minimums to keep current. I practice to maintain proficiency. I do instrument approaches routinely so they are a none event when it is needed. I flight plan my trips. I monitor fuel and make sure that I land with at least 1 hour of fuel. My charts and maps are current. I read this website and participate in Wings, internet programs, and read. You get the picture......

My wife kids me and calls me "Boy Scout Airplane Builder". Personally, I can't think of a bigger compliment. Going back to my youth, the motto "be prepared" and what it taught me should keep me flying until I'm an old fart.

One last thing, ask yourself when you think about taking a risk, "Does this pass the mother test"? If you wouldn't put dear ole mom in the plane and fly that way, it probably shouldn't be done.

Then again, it might pass the mother-in-law test!!

Attention DR

Doug-

I humbly suggest/request that this one goes into the Best Of The Best section. Your call as always...I defer to your fine judgment (as if I had a choice).

Webb,

Please oblige me and let me pick on you for just a second... Nothing personal, because I have no reason to believe you are anything other than the most consciencious pilot on your field, but you make one of my points perfectly....

You read listened to the safety speech and analyzed the accident reports to figure out why you are safe and the accidents would not happen to you.

Your risk is clearly lower than most because of the activities that you choose not to participate in, but that doesn't mean there is not risk in your flying. All flying has risks, and all of us should try to mitigate those risks...

To do that, turn the tables and read the same accident reports looking for the links in the chain that you have done, or the mistakes you have made....

When I look in that mirror, what I see is not always such a pretty picture.....

Again, please dont take me personally, but you threw me a soft ball, and I always hit those.....

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

No offense taken!!!

B25Flyer said:

Webb,

Please oblige me and let me pick on you for just a second... Nothing personal, because I have no reason to believe you are anything other than the most consciencious pilot on your field, but you make one of my points perfectly....

You read listened to the safety speech and analyzed the accident reports to figure out why you are safe and the accidents would not happen to you.

Your risk is clearly lower than most because of the activities that you choose not to participate in, but that doesn't mean there is not risk in your flying. All flying has risks, and all of us should try to mitigate those risks...

To do that, turn the tables and read the same accident reports looking for the links in the chain that you have done, or the mistakes you have made....

When I look in that mirror, what I see is not always such a pretty picture.....

Again, please dont take me personally, but you threw me a soft ball, and I always hit those.....

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

Click to expand...

Not one offense taken. As the Bud Light commercial says, I love you man. Oh yes, I have made mistakes!! If you're picking on me, that means your giving someone else a rest.

It may have been a soft ball but did you hit it (lol)!!! Seriously, the only point here is that as a pilot, I do what I can to reduce the risk. No way can I remove the danger but I can do a lot of things to improve my odds.

Last time I saw a rating of worst cities to drive in, Jackson MS was rated at the 5th worst in the nation. Based on my observations, I agree. Point of the comparison was I feel like my risk factor is lower in the air than on the ground.

Can it happen to me....absoutely. I would like to consider it hedging my bets and improving my odds. I was taught as we all were that our licenses were a license to learn and I have followed that teaching. Experience can be a very rude teacher. I prefer to learn about the nasty side of edcuation from others. It also makes me realize that safety isn't an accident.

btw - Hats off to the guys that put on the FAA safety presentations. I remember one story told that impressed me why we use a pre-flight check list. A nail had been used for the gussett lock on the yolk and the pilot had failed to check for free and clear controls and crashed just after takeoff. Every pilot in the room looked at each other with the proverbial how in the world look on their face. Lesson learned, use the check list, always.

Go ahead, pick on me some more. The rump you save might be both of ours!!

A bit OT

I've been flying airplanes and riding motorcycles for 50+ years. A few years back I realized I felt safer, a lot safer, in my RV than on the Honda VFR. So, the bike sits mostly in the garage while I happily go flying where I don't have to worry about the gal on her cel phone like Webb mentioned.

I do miss the bike, just scares me to try and think for the other drivers...

Doug, great thread and thanks.

Jerry

It's not an RV but

Doug - So close to here. This happened yesterday....and pilot wasn't a beginner which also proves your point.....

http://www.fox40now.com/news/local/46747177.html