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Seattle Avionics Really? - Come ON Dynon!

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f14av8r

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I'm a Dynon Skyview owner. I decided to subscribe to the Seattle Avionics chart service for a year. After a few months, I have to say I'm very disappointed in both the product and, mostly, the update process.

I've had the update process running most of the afternoon. I can literally count on my fingers faster than the file update numbers click by on the Seattle Avionics update counter. How can that be? In this day and age, how can it POSSIBLY take this long to transfer files from the internet, to my computer, and then, as a separate process, to the SD card which will eventually carry the data to my Skyview system.

If I were Dynon, I would fire Seattle Avionics tomorrow. Then, I'd let them compete on the new contract to supply thousands of Dynon users with data. I suspect they would either make major changes to their services, or lose the contract. Either way, I'd be happy. Right now though, I see this as a Dynon failure. And, I REALLY like Dynon!

So, come on guys (Dynon Guys, I've think the Seattle Avionics guys are clearly brain dead), please provide a more usable charting option for those of us who do not want to spend several HOURS a month updating our Skyview databases!

Rant over!
Randy
 
It doesn't help Dynon

I read about this as I was deciding between Dynon and Garmin and it was enough of a negative that I went with Garmin. I'm not a fanboy for anything, but I wish some of the big corporations would try to recognize how some of the seemingly insignificant aspects really do impact how prospect and customers view them.
 
Seattle Avionics

It's because Seattle Avionics wrote all their software in Visual Basic. Their Data Manager is a terrible program, that is prone to errors and hangups BECAUSE it used Microsoft Visual Basic.

One way to speedup the download process is to limit the areas. Only download the areas that you normally fly in. If you try to download all the sectionals and other charts for the whole USA, it will probably take more than an overnight period...

I have the GRT subscription, and do download ALL charts and appraoch plates for the whole USA. It takes over 12 hours!

I'm a Dynon Skyview owner. I decided to subscribe to the Seattle Avionics chart service for a year. After a few months, I have to say I'm very disappointed in both the product and, mostly, the update process.

I've had the update process running most of the afternoon. I can literally count on my fingers faster than the file update numbers click by on the Seattle Avionics update counter. How can that be? In this day and age, how can it POSSIBLY take this long to transfer files from the internet, to my computer, and then, as a separate process, to the SD card which will eventually carry the data to my Skyview system.

If I were Dynon, I would fire Seattle Avionics tomorrow. Then, I'd let them compete on the new contract to supply thousands of Dynon users with data. I suspect they would either make major changes to their services, or lose the contract. Either way, I'd be happy. Right now though, I see this as a Dynon failure. And, I REALLY like Dynon!

So, come on guys (Dynon Guys, I've think the Seattle Avionics guys are clearly brain dead), please provide a more usable charting option for those of us who do not want to spend several HOURS a month updating our Skyview databases!

Rant over!
Randy
 
Funny timing. I just fired Seattle Avionics after fooling with their archaic, buggy software for two years. Even a note to the support email address to let them know why. The CEO responded back within about two minutes, which shocked me. But then he made a critical mistake and tried to argue with a customer, saying nobody has had problems since their new software release a couple months ago. I guess they're just delusional. And fired.

Come on Dynon, give us another option. SA is a joke.
 
Agreed it sucks. Love the charts, though, so I'll keep hassling with it.

My solution is the one most people use...two sticks. Leave one in the computer and ChartManager running in the background, and swap on the update cycle boundary.

Rotten software, though. They really need a software architect to re-engineer it.
 
I don't use Seattle charts so can't comment on them but, as a matter of curiosity, what do you get with them over tablet hosted charts available from a number of sources? I've been pretty happy using (free) FltPlan.com/FltPlan Go capabilities in conjunction with SkyView. I get sectionals, Low Alt. Enroute, Approach Plates, etc. The tablet also hosts my checklists, and other things I use enroute. Just curious ...
 
I don't use Seattle charts so can't comment on them but, as a matter of curiosity, what do you get with them over tablet hosted charts available from a number of sources? I've been pretty happy using (free) FltPlan.com/FltPlan Go capabilities in conjunction with SkyView. I get sectionals, Low Alt. Enroute, Approach Plates, etc. The tablet also hosts my checklists, and other things I use enroute. Just curious ...

We get GeoReffed charts and plates on our EFIS's, sectionals and Hi/Lo IFR charts displayed on the EFIS. I also get the charts in WingX but they are only for backup.

For me personally I just don't like having to have my iPad in my lap all the time. Everything I need to fly IFR safely and efficiently is displayed on the panel.

As for the software itself it is a bit, shall we say dated. I keep 31 states, sectionals, Hi and Lo IFR charts current. My usual 28 day update takes about 45 minutes to an hour to update. The initial download fron Seattle took several hours. It is pretty amazng when you consider my Garmin 650 updates take about 30 seconds. Of course that's apples to oranges when you compare the digital charts are actually displayed on the EFIS.
 
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I forgot to mention in my post above:

In my email conversation with the CEO of Seattle Avionics, Steve Podrachik, he specifically mentioned a lack of complaints received about the software. So for those of you who have some feedback to provide, please send an email to [email protected]. Perhaps if enough people write in, they'll do something about the crummy software.

I really would like to be a customer again because I like having charts and plates on my Skyview, even if only for a backup. But I refuse to monkey with that data-mangler software any longer.
 
Seattle Avionics is well aware of the fact that people hate their update process. If you spend any time at all on the Dynon support site, you'll see this. The bottom line is that Seattle Avionics doesn't really care about this. I'm not flying yet, but when I do, there's no way I'll be buying the charts for my Skyview system because of these problems. This is a major blemish on Dynon's otherwise great reputation and they need to pay some major attention to this.
 
A quote from the CEO:

"Kurt, I think you misunderstand. We've had just two reports of problems with this data update -- and it's used by well-over 10,000 pilots (100,000 including FlyQ Pocket). That's a pretty darned good track record if you ask me. As the ultimate judge, sales to all pilots, including Dynon users, are increasing rapidly -- not what you'd see with widespread problems. And, for the record, 0 reports of problems from Aspen, Bendix-King, GRT, or other users. We track this very carefully."

With only two reports of problems since the software release a couple of months ago, they don't seem motivated to fix anything. Maybe people have just given up all hope that sending complaints will do any good?
 
I forgot to mention in my post above:

In my email conversation with the CEO of Seattle Avionics, Steve Podrachik, he specifically mentioned a lack of complaints received about the software. So for those of you who have some feedback to provide, please send an email to [email protected]. Perhaps if enough people write in, they'll do something about the crummy software.

I really would like to be a customer again because I like having charts and plates on my Skyview, even if only for a backup. But I refuse to monkey with that data-mangler software any longer.

This is blatantly false, because there are a couple threads on the Dynon forums where customers are ranting and raving about the problems with the SA software, and Steve has replied to them. He obviously knows there is a problem and if he told you otherwise he was lying to you.
 
A quote from the CEO:

"Kurt, I think you misunderstand. We've had just two reports of problems with this data update -- and it's used by well-over 10,000 pilots (100,000 including FlyQ Pocket). That's a pretty darned good track record if you ask me. As the ultimate judge, sales to all pilots, including Dynon users, are increasing rapidly -- not what you'd see with widespread problems. And, for the record, 0 reports of problems from Aspen, Bendix-King, GRT, or other users. We track this very carefully."

With only two reports of problems since the software release a couple of months ago, they don't seem motivated to fix anything. Maybe people have just given up all hope that sending complaints will do any good?
Wow. I was thinking of renewing this month, but that attitude is very off-putting. I'd also be interested in seeing the renewal rate for the group of first-time buyers he references. Sometimes keeping an existing customer is harder than selling to a new one.
 
I guess I am guilty of not complaining. No excuse.

But, maybe Seattle Avionics should send all there users a brief survey to see what we really like and don't like.

I do feel it is easy to update my AFS5400.....once it is downloaded onto the USB.

But, it does take a lot of time watching the thousands of files upload.

At $99 a year I think its a bargian and others could reduce there price for us "GA" pilots.
 
Personally, i have not had many problems with the download manager once I let it run in the background and just let it do its thing. Initially, when i tried to adhoc run it, i had problems. I have somewhat slow download speeds on the machine i wanted to use, so adhoc running it was never going to work. However, letting it run in the background is easier. I think that was the intended design probably anyway.
 
Personally, i have not had many problems with the download manager once I let it run in the background and just let it do its thing. Initially, when i tried to adhoc run it, i had problems. I have somewhat slow download speeds on the machine i wanted to use, so adhoc running it was never going to work. However, letting it run in the background is easier. I think that was the intended design probably anyway.

I agree. Iwill get a popup that tells me there are new charts available and I insert my stisk andletitload...
 
I dont have problems with it either and been using it for two years now. I keep two USB sticks and swap them when updates come in. I let it do its own thing and pull the USB stick when I see it is done. It has to suck though to be one of the people that cant get it to work right.
 
No problems

Especially with the new software. I plug in the thumb drive, make sure I have the states I need selected, click on "Update Now" and a few minutes later I'm done.

There may be something more at play here than just the software.
 
Sure lot's of people sign up for the S.A. service. I wonder how many renew. I fell for it and there's no way I will renew. It was ****.

On a good note, I really love ForeFlight and it does all I need. Now with the Dynon WiFi connection to it, it's even better.
 
Randy,

I've been using the Seattle Avionics charts for two years with great results on my dual SkyView system.

Granted, Seattle Avionics customer support response is lacking.... and the download time can be frustrating. But the end product of having geo-referenced approach charts and maps integrated with the SkyView is a great feature.

Here are a few tips that might ease your frustration:

1. Upgrade your computer to one that supports USB 3.0.
My old XP computer was getting slower by the day.... I popped $600 for a new Dell computer with lots of memory, speed, disk storage, Windows 10, and USB 3.0 and the difference was night and day for Seattle chart download times.

Computer: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/dell-in...mory-1tb-hard-drive-black/7570007.p?id=121927

USB Stick: http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Ultra-Low-Profile-Flash-SDCZ43-032G-G46/dp/B00LLER2CS

These two relatively cheap upgrades changed my chart downloads from hours to minutes...

2. Get organized. Buy TWO USB memory sticks... one in the SkyView, and the other one at home to update when necessary. Set a reminder on your cellphone calendar to remind you when the Dynon/FAA/Seattle charts are about to expire so you aren't surprised by expired database warnings when you go flying.

3. Upgrade version to 13.x SkyView firmware, and the Seattle Avionics 13.x compatible chart download software. Much faster! Let the Seattle software run in background so your computer already has the new chart data when you need it. Then, all you need to do is have it automatically transfer the charts to your memory stick when needed.

By the way, the USB WiFi option for the SkyView is money well-spent if you use ForeFlight. One push of the button on your iPad and the flightplan is zapped into your SkyView. Absolute magic. I love it.

Cheers, and Safe Flying....
 
Ive been able to survive on a single stick. My typical M.O. is to let it run overnight. I do find the interface dated and its not the easiest program to work with. But it does work as long as you give it many hours to do its thing. It chews up a LOT of local disk space.
 
... CEO of Seattle Avionics, Steve Podrachik, he specifically mentioned a lack of complaints received about the software. ...
That would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful. Possibly Podrachik is in denial. When I contacted S.A. he was manning Tech Support. His "solution" was less than useful.

Count me among the legion of dissatisfied S.A. customers and myriad users who won't be renewing their S.A. subscriptions. S.A. has had plenty of time and opportunity to clean up their operation. I won't even buy another EFIS that has S.A. providing the charts.

--
Joe
 
Here are a few tips that might ease your frustration:

1. Upgrade your computer to one that supports USB 3.0.
My old XP computer was getting slower by the day.... I popped $600 for a new Dell computer with lots of memory, speed, disk storage, Windows 10, and USB 3.0 and the difference was night and day for Seattle chart download times.

2. Get organized. Buy TWO USB memory sticks... one in the SkyView, and the other one at home to update when necessary. Set a reminder on your cellphone calendar to remind you when the Dynon/FAA/Seattle charts are about to expire so you aren't surprised by expired database warnings when you go flying.

3. Upgrade version to 13.x SkyView firmware, and the Seattle Avionics 13.x compatible chart download software. Much faster! Let the Seattle software run in background so your computer already has the new chart data when you need it. Then, all you need to do is have it automatically transfer the charts to your memory stick when needed.

Steps 1, 2, and 3 were complete months ago. USB 3.0 everything. I thought everything was fixed with the new software. But this month, it only loaded IFR lows and flight guide to the 32GB stick. VFR sectionals and plates did not load and showed yellow on the stick (green on the PC), while the app was happily sitting idle and the stick showed well over half empty. Pushing the update button again didn't work. It's a different failure mode almost every month. Usually deleting all data from the PC and the USB, then re-downloading and re-loading to the USB, fixes the problem. I consider the fact that I have to go through that ritual every couple of months a massive failure on the part of SA, even if I'm eventually able to make it work. And needing to purchase an additional $600+ PC to make it work is nonsense.

On top of that, the charts aren't available even 1 day before they become active. So I'm usually without current charts for a couple days while I monkey with the software and files. Foreflight to the rescue.
 
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Me thinks he doth complain too much

See, the thing is, when you get pages and pages of work-arounds then maybe it's time fix the root cause. Sure, I've got a capable PC, USB newest, hot USB thumb drive, etc. Still, the download process is painful. If it were as simple as just leaving it alone overnight it wouldn't be a big deal. My problem is that I come back to the computer in the morning to find one of those dang yellow dots staring me in the face. Bummer. File 8423 of 25,979 transferred but good 'ole 8424 decided he wasn't playing Seattle Avionics game. START ALL OVER!

I simply have no patience for poorly designed software like this holding us all hostage. Will I keep using it? Probably. What other real choices do I have to get geo-ref charts on my Skyview? That's why my beef is with Dynon. Why do they associate their excellent products with these bone heads?
 
Will I keep using it? Probably. What other real choices do I have to get geo-ref charts on my Skyview? That's why my beef is with Dynon. Why do they associate their excellent products with these bone heads?

You answered your own question. They keep doing it, because you'll keep buying it.

SA needs to shove it and choke. Dynon needs to pick a better vendor for the product.
 
I think SA is in the same boat as quite a few other small companies who find themselves suddenly in a bigger market. They had a half-decent product which enough people found okay enough to use, and they have the data pipeline to support supplying a bigger market. Then they inked a deal with Dynon to supply the data, and suddenly, their once-barely-sustainable toolset is inadequate to deal with the larger market (and that market's more demanding users).

IMO, GoPro was the same (and may still be). Small company, a few guys came up with a clever product, and it worked *most* of the time, and any glitches were only felt by a small number of customers (because there were only a small number to begin with). Then it took off, and all of a sudden, there were *tons* of complaints (on various internet forums, etc.) about crappy update procedures, cameras that failed, etc. I went through *3* of them before I got one that worked. And I wasn't alone. I think they've (sort of) fixed that now, but still...amateurs suddenly thrust into a great big worldwide market which demanded professionalism

SA seems to be the same. Unless and until they re-architect and re-engineer their software, they're just going to keep getting complaints (and they'll get louder). They did implement a pretty good fix to the interminable download times recently, for at least some of their charts, but the software is still buggy and has a tendency to "hang", oftentimes necessitating completely deleting all the data and starting over.

That's poor design, and probably poor implementation. No amount of bandaids on the software will fix that. (Plus, it's frankly a really poorly-designed interface).

Unfortunately, I don't know who else Dynon would go to get the charts supplied at such a low price, though. I think in the best of all possible worlds, they would design their own system and acquire and distribute the charts through their own company (but then again, Garmin doesn't do this with their boxes, do they? They use Jepp...and it costs us a ridiculous amount of money for what is, at its heart, merely a reformatting of government-supplied data).

I've been just as frustrated with the poor SA software app as anyone...but I love the georeferenced charts, so I'm stuck with dealing with it, like everyone else.

Hopefully something will change soon...

ETA: http://seattleavionics.com/Management.aspx
Hey, look...they both started at Microsoft. That might explain some things. :)
 
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[ed. Civility edit. dr] I have a fast computer, Internet connection and 3.0 USB sticks. I still have problems downloading. My workaround is to delete the data from my memory sticks before I attempt to transfer the files from my computer. Although it takes more time it really doesn't because I spend less time messing around with the darn thing trying to get the data on the stick in the normal method. I have to Skyview screens so I have to do data download to two sticks. What a PIA. I do like to have the charts on my Skyview's so I put up with it.
 
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I am sorry if I am stating the obvious, and most people are probably doing this, but I found that I don't have any problems if I load the software program, then update the computer with no sticks installed.

When finished updating the computer, I put the stick in, wait for the software to recognize the stick and then click yes to start updating automatically.
Then I put my second stick in and wait for it to be recognized and it will also update with no problems.

When I had the stick in while the computer was updating, the software was trying to update the computer and the stick at the same time and never would finish.
 
Inelegant

When I had the stick in while the computer was updating, the software was trying to update the computer and the stick at the same time and never would finish.

An inelegant approach, but that works. I use SA & find it manageable. I'll give that approach a shot.
 
I'vebeen using Seattle for several years now. Admittedly the initial download took a long time and when I upgraded to Windows 10 I had to reload the program, but other than that my GRT downloads have been as expected. I keep 31 states, sctionals, charts, Hi and Lo current and yesterday I updated my stick in less than 45 minutes in the background.

If it works like this for GRT maybe it's not Seattle that has the problem.
 
I am happy now

For all the reasons mentioned I quit S.A. subscription.

I love my Dynon avionics but their choice to use S.A. for charts?????

Foreflight is my chart and flight planning software of choice and
updates are painless and super fast.
 
I think in the best of all possible worlds, they would design their own system and acquire and distribute the charts through their own company (but then again, Garmin doesn't do this with their boxes, do they? They use Jepp...and it costs us a ridiculous amount of money for what is, at its heart, merely a reformatting of government-supplied data).

Just to keep facts as facts.....Garmin uses Jepp for their IFR boxes - the G3X uses in-house chart subscriptions from Garmin itself.
 
Garmin doesn't do this with their boxes, do they? They use Jepp...and it costs us a ridiculous amount of money for what is, at its heart, merely a reformatting of government-supplied data

Thank you Paul for setting the record straight. We apologize for posting on this thread and strongly prefer to not post on threads focused on other's products, but we want to make sure that people considering G3X are not confused by the statement quoted above.

We have a group of people in our building in Olathe, KS who work hard to source data and offer the best value possible for our G3X customers. We are quite proud of the value that the below database options for G3X/G3X Touch systems provide and don't want anyone to be misled by others.

Thanks,
Steve

US Mini Database Bundle $49.99/yr ($4.17/mo)
Includes the following databases, updated as often as you like using an SD card in the display:
  • US VFR Navigation Data (airports, runways, frequencies)
  • Obstacles (e.g. towers - used to provide obstacle visual and aural alerting including obstacle depiction in synthetic vision)
  • Terrain (used to render synthetic vision and provide terrain alerting)
  • SafeTaxi (airport diagrams integrated into moving map that are displayed and zoomed automatically when you need them for taxi and landing)

US Lite Database Bundle for G3X/G3X Touch Systems $149.99/yr ($12.50/mo)
Includes the following 7 databases, updated as often as you like using an SD card in the display:
  • US VFR Navigation Data (airports, runways, frequencies)
  • Obstacles (e.g. towers - used to provide obstacle visual and aural alerting including obstacle depiction in synthetic vision)
  • Terrain (used to render synthetic vision and provide terrain alerting)
  • FliteCharts (Geo-referenced IFR approach plates, airport diagrams, arrival and departure procedures)
  • SafeTaxi (airport diagrams integrated into moving map that are displayed and zoomed automatically when you need them for taxi and landing)
  • Airport Directory (FBOs, runways, hours of operation, rental cars, etc)
  • IFR/VFR Charts (VFR sectionals and IFR Hi/Lo charts, G3X Touch only)
 
One of the main reasons I put all the gee whiz stuff in my panel was just so I wouldn't have to have an iPad out all the time. It's a great source but for me it's strictly a backup if my avionics craps out.

Call me crazy but I personally dont trust my life to an iPad.
 
Yet another view ....

"What Widget Said" ...

When the SA data was being made available for GRT, I had the "honor" of doing some of the first "trials" just to see if it worked at all.

It took a LOOOONG time for the downloads.

With some mods over time by SA and some good memory sticks, (USB), we found that by leaving the process running the "computer" is always up to date with no pain. Then plugging the memory stick in at some point in the evening, the update has been painless.

The *problem*is in part due to the "design" that requires a lot of "open file, write file, close file" operations on a USB stick. USB sticks were made primarily for writing one "LARGE" file at a time, not thousands of small ones.

Probably if the files were a few larger "packed" files that used software on the EFIS to "unpack", then the process would be faster. But THAT would require more software load on the EFIS side.

As I recall (Widget do you recall?) the Jeppesen data for the GRT may go a bit faster. But you pay a little more (unless they have changed pricing). I am **SURE** that if SA could "double" their prices and keep all the same customers, that they would have enough money to hire additional programmers to write a bit more spiffy download mechanism.

Finally, say that there are 10,000 planes that want this data. Probably a LOT closer to 1,000. At $150/year you are talking $150K - $1.5M. Let's say $300K (10% of ALL flying Experimentals) . Not too much revenue to hire too many programmers to make a whole lot of changes once something is basically working. Now, of course, some really whiz-bang developer could in fact develop a faster packaging mechanism, get the data and do the marketing and challenge SA for the business. The question is, is there enough REAL market opportunity?

I am happy that they offer it, even if there are areas for improvement. It represents a certain VALUE for me. Just like most other offerings in the experimental world.

James
 
It represents a certain VALUE for me. Just like most other offerings in the experimental world.
I am glad it currently represents enough VALUE for you. But after a 2yr subscription, and given what is available, $99.00/yr isn't enough value for me.

:cool:
 
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Ten years ago if someone said you would be able to display geo-referenced sectionals and approach plates on your experimental EFIS in your homebuilt airplane, I would have first said, "What does geo-referenced mean," then I'd have been awestruck. And for $99 per year!!! (or $150!!) More than once I spent well over $100 per trip on paper charts for my longer IFR/VFR trips. I remember ordering them from Spruce or Sporty's and waiting days for shipping... I know you do too, I'm not even 40 yet! :eek:

I worked many long hours with SA trying to get this feature available for GRT systems when I worked there. Working with SA wasn't easy and I can't say I'm a huge fan, but their process does work and the product works as advertised.

I just can't believe what it takes to wind people up these days. Before you get all pissy, why not take a step back and just look at the situational awareness and convenience that's available to you today for $99/year. It is magnificent.
 
SA

Well said Katie! I used to maintain the entire US enroute and approach charts by Jeppesen. Every two weeks I had to work 20-50 minutes swapping outdated approaches on onionskin like paper. Every year we had to go through all the approaches to check they were there and dated properly - thousands. For this privilege we paid, near the end of it, about $1200 per year. I am really amazed and grateful for what we can have now.
 
Yea, yea and IF my grandmother had handlebars she would be a motorcycle. It isn't 10yrs ago, things have changed in the market and SA needs to keep up.

Now, you young whippersnappers get off my lawn and leave this old curmudgeon alone.

:D
 
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