Another Tank Anxiety Thread

First I'd like to state that I have read this thread and this thread along with many others as well as scoured many other's build sites ad nauseum.

I've decided to go the 100% cleco and walk away route instead of immediately wet riveting. I've still got two main questions:

1) Should I follow that same mantra (100% cleco and walk away) for the stiffeners as well or should I go ahead and shoot those right away?

2) How long is too long to wait and come back to shoot the rivets? I know that it is all dependent on cure time, temperature, etc... I've read where people have waited a few days prior to riveting, but what is the max time one would be able to wait?

Thank you in advance for the tips!

1. You can go either way on the stiffiners, it really doesn't matter on them. If it was me I would just shoot them right away and move on to the next step.

2. It depends hugely on temperature. I would not wait more than one day though. I did my tanks in the winter, waited 24 hours, then shot the rivets. No issues.

Tanks are one of the big steps in the building process that you stress over, read every little detail, then actually get to working on them and after you are finished you will say "that was way easier than I thought it would be."

I also think this is one area of the build that you shouldn't be concerned about weight. Slather that junk on there, don't be chincy with the sealant.

I worried over this way too much and it cost me time because I didn't just wade in. I sealed by putting the sealant on the rib and then setting it into the tank; cleco a couple of ribs worth and then went ahead and riveted. I wore a respirator and kept some solvent/towels handy but honestly it went super well. I put in all the clico to set position, then took half out. When I took one out I twisted the end in the rag with solvent and enough cleaned off to make me happy. I set those rivets and then took the other half of the cleco out and repeated. Then I put proseal on the shop heads and along the edges of the rib.

It really wasn't very messy, and the tank didn't get deformed by having too much proseal thickness - it squeezed out nicely.

I used a box of gloves per tank - gloves were the key to keeping me neat.

I also took some brown craft paper and wiped the dimple mostly free of proseal and set the rivets without worrying about dipping them in proseal or anything. The process of setting the rivet just about guarantees that there is a good ring of proseal around the rivet joint; putting some on the head inside is just insurance.

No leaks on either tank. I was super relieved. I stressed it all the way. And it wasn't as messy as all that.

I think if you wait a day or two it will be super hard to clean the cleco's. And the thickness potentially is too great. And the benefit of a cleaner workspace isn't worth it in the end. If I ever do it again I'm just going to dive in and get it done.

Fay seal

ShortSnorter said:

First I'd like to state that I have read this thread and this thread along with many others as well as scoured many other's build sites ad nauseum.

I've decided to go the 100% cleco and walk away route instead of immediately wet riveting. I've still got two main questions:

1) Should I follow that same mantra (100% cleco and walk away) for the stiffeners as well or should I go ahead and shoot those right away?

2) How long is too long to wait and come back to shoot the rivets? I know that it is all dependent on cure time, temperature, etc... I've read where people have waited a few days prior to riveting, but what is the max time one would be able to wait?

Thank you in advance for the tips!

Click to expand...

I followed the fay sealing method. 100% clekos. I even put a nut on the inside on each cleko to increase the tension. Wait was 24-48 hours. I used the same method on stiffeners. They haven't held fuel yet but did sit for almost a month with the manometer hooked up at 27" of water with no change.

Couple things...

Once or twice, I waited at least a week before riveting my tank joints, merely for convenience.

And I did something sort of anal. I got a few boxes of #4 nuts and drilled them out with a #40 drill, which sounds sort of tedious but went quickly enough. I used these to help hold the clecos in the holes, both for security and for additional pressure. Worked quite well, and thanks to Wirejock for that trick. The nuts were easy enough to remove.

Dave

One RV-14 comment

One comment I will make with regards to the RV-14:

Tom's advice is great but looking back now on his suggestion to use the cartridges I would either use the quarts of proseal and mix it myself, or if you do choose to use the cartridges buy a quart of proseal as well because I found that it took 1.5-2 times the number of individual proseal cartridges that he suggested. In my experience I would end up needing to start a new cartridge but only needing around 1/4 of it and having to put it in the freezer or waste it before the next session.

I started one tank with the cleco and come back method however in the end I found that just wet riveting worked better for me. The tanks were one of those things that seemed a lot more intimidating than the reality. Although I wouldn't go build another set anytime soon

Also get some type A sealant, look it up, I've mentioned this in other threads, it's a thinner consistency. After you're finished riveting and the baffle's still off, go over each rivet head with a dab (make it look a bit like a Hershey's Kiss) and each edge. Use a plastic syringe for the application, works a charm.

Dave

I wrote up my experience building the tanks in this thread.

Simple, follow the instructions. Thousands of builders can't be wrong.

The thing I do not like about using clecos and riveting later is that even when riveted, the skin to rib juncture can move ever so slightly, working the proseal. It is best to wet rivet the parts together and then cover everything with more proseal.

If you get proseal on the outside of your tank, leave it until hard and sand it off. DO NOT clean it with MEK, acetone, or anything else!

Between 2 airplanes, mine and my buddy's, we have

2 tanks done by riveting while the Pro-Seal was wet
2 tanks done by riveting a week or so after sealing and cleco-ing

Leaks: 0

So I don't know that either method can be "preferred" over the other. I will say that sealing the ribs and then letting it sit and riveting later was *much, much* easier in terms of clean-up, mess, fuss, etc.

Stiffeners were all riveted wet. Shop heads had plenty of sealant encapsulating each of them in both cases.

.......other options?

...I hear there are sick, twisted, demented individuals whom, if you send them your tanks, will do all this, and then send them back, and only charge you some money, while you actually do parts of the build that are less stressful, messy, etc. ( if not actually easier in truth!)

( same may be said for fibreglassing, painting, panels, upholstery, etc. etc.)

flyboy1963 said:

...I hear there are sick, twisted, demented individuals whom, if you send them your tanks, will do all this, and then send them back, and only charge you some money, while you actually do parts of the build that are less stressful, messy, etc. ( if not actually easier in truth!)

Click to expand...

Aw, where's the fun in that? You haven't LIVED until you've gotten that Pro-Seal **** everywhere (arms, shirts, shoes, etc.). And the smell of MEK...smells like...victory!

By the end of the tanks you will be practiced enough that gloves are no longer needed. No muss no fuss.

proseal mess

I had a friend tell me to keep a pan of water with some dish washing liquid mixed in it handy and dip your hands in it often while using proseal. I did and it works you can wipe it off your fingers with a paper towel. It is great as far as smoothing out proseal along an edge or seam as well as smoothing over rivets. I would just avoid getting the liquid between the proseal and the application area, it works so well keeping it from sticking to fingers it may keep it from sealing the surface being applied to. Just passing it on.

flyboy1963 said:

...I hear there are sick, twisted, demented individuals whom, if you send them your tanks, will do all this, and then send them back, and only charge you some money, while you actually do parts of the build that are less stressful, messy, etc. ( if not actually easier in truth!)

( same may be said for fibreglassing, painting, panels, upholstery, etc. etc.)

Click to expand...

I can't say the thought has not crossed my mind but for one, I'm too cheap; second I see it as a rite of passage of sorts.

messr723 said:

I had a friend tell me to keep a pan of water with some dish washing liquid mixed in it handy and dip your hands in it often while using proseal. I did and it works you can wipe it off your fingers with a paper towel. It is great as far as smoothing out proseal along an edge or seam as well as smoothing over rivets. I would just avoid getting the liquid between the proseal and the application area, it works so well keeping it from sticking to fingers it may keep it from sealing the surface being applied to. Just passing it on.

Click to expand...

When working the the foam ribs on the elevators I donned multiple pairs of disposable gloves. When one pair got too messy to work with (i.e. sticking to everything) I just took peeled them off. Even with this I still ended up with a mysterious smear of proseal on the back of my calf that took a week to wear off. I'm not so much worried about working with the sealant as I am effectiveness of the each method.

I think I've gotten to the point of analysis paralysis just as many builders before me have. I never realized that fuel tank sealing method was so similar to the primer debates. The problem is, I can see where each method (wet or semi cured) of riveting is logical.

I think I'll go with my gut and follow the manual and use plenty of sealant after riveting. I guess I'll take the plunge this weekend.

The way I see it, you can either make it look real pretty and use just enough sealant, or you can slather on enough that there is no way in the world for it to leak. I went with option #2. Nobody will ever see the inside of my tanks again, and I can make up the 8 oz weight difference somewhere else. I have leak tested with air as well as fuel, and so far not even the slightest hint of a leak. Resign yourself to getting a little messy, and just go for it. Not that hard looking back.

Chris