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  #51  
Old 12-25-2020, 08:15 PM
Captain Avgas Captain Avgas is offline
 
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Originally Posted by David Z View Post
I spent 10 grand (actually more) renovating my garage into an airplane shop. The financial math on the garage reno was done with option B where many of the little things like the extra switch cover didn't get added in.

Does that count as part of the airplane cost?
This is an easy question to answer. If the expenditure on the garage has not added anything to the capital value of the property in terms of resale value then it’s an aircraft building cost. It’s that simple.

Actually your interesting post jogged my memory. I remembered installing many banks of fluorescent lighting in my garage to bring the lux level up to a useable luminosity for my aircraft build (poor lighting is one of the most common reasons for substandard workmanship). And then later on I added a temporary garage annex so that I could trial fit the wings at home. There are untold ways to haemorrhage money during the build of an aircraft...much of it does not appear in any budget.

I tried to build as economically as I could. No one wants to spend more money than they have to. But as the build progressed I found myself throwing more money at it just to get it finished. The best way to really waste a lot of money on an aircraft build is to quit before it’s finished. And the further you are into the build, the truer that becomes....bailing out of a 90% built plane will be financially disasterous. So in the end I gave up on trying to save small amounts of money (particularly on freight costs) and aimed at getting the job completed at any cost. I suspect this would be true of many other builders as well. They start off being very careful and frugal and eventually just end up throwing money at the project to get it finished before they run out of perseverance.

This thread has thrown up some very interesting comments and shows a real maturity over many past threads on building costs. In the past threads on building costs have eventually tended to descend into a farcical competition as to who had built the cheapest RV in history. You always got the good soul who had built an RV4 back in the 1980s for $30k. It had a time expired O-320, timber prop, second hand steam gauges....and was unpainted.
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Last edited by Captain Avgas : 12-25-2020 at 11:40 PM.
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  #52  
Old 12-25-2020, 10:14 PM
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longranger longranger is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 45G, Brighton, MI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Avgas View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Z
I spent 10 grand (actually more) renovating my garage into an airplane shop. The financial math on the garage reno was done with option B where many of the little things like the extra switch cover didn't get added in.

Does that count as part of the airplane cost?
This is an easy question to answer. If the expenditure on the garage has not added anything to the capital value of the property in terms of resale value then it’s an aircraft building cost. It’s that simple. ...
Regardless of whether the cost to build or upgrade a shop adds to the valise of a home, I don’t think you should expect to recover that in the sale of the plane.
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Last edited by longranger : 12-25-2020 at 10:18 PM.
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  #53  
Old 12-26-2020, 01:29 AM
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DeeCee 57 DeeCee 57 is offline
 
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Very good points Captain Avgas.

Another thing to consider, specially for a project dragging over the years, is money value depreciation. 20 years ago your 100$ was worth more, meaning the $$$$ you put in that dream are loosing value by the day...

But the quickest way to loose $$$$$ is instrumentation. Buy the latest fancy glass today, and cry out loud about its value tomorrow...

And last but not list (partly as a reflection of the above) is the kit price increase... talking about that 80s RV-4 kit, I remember paying the grand sum of $6Ď600 for that (raw materials) kit, including all options... time flies
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  #54  
Old 12-26-2020, 08:50 AM
Lemos Lemos is offline
 
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Location: Julian, California
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It sounds like a 14 is probably overpriced due to short supply. The 10, I can see spending a fair amount of money on.

Iím in talks for a 10. If that doesnít work and Iíll probably just wait for a 14 or 14A in the $150,000-range. One will come if I am patient. Cash talks.
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  #55  
Old 12-26-2020, 10:10 AM
Pilot8 Pilot8 is offline
 
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Location: California
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The RV14 is a third generation pre-punched kit with step by step drawings and videos! In the two years spent waiting to buy one, you could build it, and you'd spend around $150k fully tricked out! Plus you'd have a ton of fun doing it, and most importantly, you'd join an exclusive club. Go for it guys, you only go around once!
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Last edited by Pilot8 : 12-26-2020 at 10:34 AM.
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  #56  
Old 12-26-2020, 11:10 AM
SantosDumont SantosDumont is offline
 
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Location: Henderson, NV
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I really have no intention of building the most economical airplane possible. If economy was the goal I would have just kept my Mooney. My intention is to build the awesomest plane I can with all the latest tech, I really don't care how much it costs.
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  #57  
Old 12-26-2020, 06:16 PM
Captain Avgas Captain Avgas is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemos View Post
It sounds like a 14 is probably overpriced due to short supply. The 10, I can see spending a fair amount of money on.

Iím in talks for a 10. If that doesnít work and Iíll probably just wait for a 14 or 14A in the $150,000-range. One will come if I am patient. Cash talks.
If you want to buy and fly then donít be influenced by the pied pipers on VansAirforce who will encourage you to build. They might just be leading you to the river to drown....only approximately 30% of builders who buy an RV empennage kit ever finish the plane and get it flying...the others lose a lot of money and waste a lot of time.

Having said that I would caution against looking to buy a particular model for a low ball price. As with everything else in life you tend to get what you pay for. I was an aircraft judge for the Sport Aircraft Association of Australia for 7 years, and Iíve been a technical counsellor for a lot longer. Iíve also done quite a lot of prepurchase inspections for prospective buyers. Iíve closely inspected LITERALLY hundreds of RVs. And that considerable experience has told me that the build quality of backyard amateur-built aircraft covers an extremely wide spectrum indeed....from totally disgraceful and unairworthy dogs to sublime works of art. Unfortunately, there are more of the former and less of the latter. In fact, in my opinion there are a lot of very poorly constructed RVs out there...so be careful.

Iíd hunt for quality first and then negotiate on the price rather than be attracted to low prices which are almost certain to reflect poor workmanship.
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  #58  
Old 12-26-2020, 07:15 PM
Pilot8 Pilot8 is offline
 
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I helped my brother find a RV7A- he's a doc and just doesn't have the time or interest in building one. The market is unnerving- good planes are gone extremely quickly; one needs to buy it based on the phone call only, then rely on the prebuy to catch any discrepancies with the verbal description. One can get lucky by finding a good plane before it goes on the market- the way my brother snagged his 7, by way of a well connected RV builder at a popular RV airport. Well made, perfect, planes with the latest panel are priced high because the builder knows what it is worth and the seller won't really go down much unless the world is about to end. I recommend getting to know some RV builders at your local airport who you can rely on to help you ask the right questions. I saw some planes that sold quickly that had what I thought were serious structural issues. It's buyer beware. It took us a year to find a decent plane and cost was no object. One other thought- the two seater planes priced at $225k are built on spec by professional builders.
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Last edited by Pilot8 : 12-26-2020 at 07:46 PM.
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  #59  
Old 12-26-2020, 09:43 PM
springer springer is offline
 
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Location: AZ/MN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeCee 57 View Post
And last but not list (partly as a reflection of the above) is the kit price increase... talking about that 80s RV-4 kit, I remember paying the grand sum of $6Ď600 for that (raw materials) kit, including all options... time flies
My brand new Lycoming O-360-A1A in 1989 was $13,500.
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  #60  
Old 01-18-2021, 02:12 PM
NinerBikes NinerBikes is offline
 
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Location: Granada Hills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotkms View Post
Said another way, More WIDE buyers in the population. Less WIDE planes on the market.
Another plane reason to bump up the weight limit for the E-LSA class from 1320# (600kgs) to 1540 (700 kgs), for us old, fat, wide bodied red blooded American males.

It's getting tougher and tougher to have a decent payload on a RV-12 IS with fuel injected engine, primer, paint, and a few bells and whistles. 800 + # plane with paint, primer, wheel pants, AP, glass EFIS and 119# of fuel. 1320 - 920 leaves you 400 # of passenger and carry on.

Really tough if you are one of those big, tall Dutch or German homo sapiens that goes well north of 200 #s.

FAA needs to fix that problem.
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