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Runway Finder shutting down

Dave, sorry to see you go.

Runway finder was my favorite way to do trip planning and I will miss your site.

Good luck on whatever you do next.

Thank you,

Kent
 
I wonder if he could tell us how much the cost difference is? If we could somehow come up with the extra funds, a number of people here are software engineers that could help out...
 
ErichKeane said:
I wonder if he could tell us how much the cost difference is? If we could somehow come up with the extra funds, a number of people here are software engineers that could help out...
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Doesn't sound like that's possible:

"I've had many people suggest alternatives, but unfortunately there is no way to keep it going (for reasons I can't disclose)".
 
The only reason he can't disclose that I can think of is the patent nonsense from last year... perhaps his rights are not transferable?

I would really like to see this site stay around, I'd be surprised if this was a problem that we couldn't solve as a community.
 
txaviator said:
"I've had many people suggest alternatives, but unfortunately there is no way to keep it going (for reasons I can't disclose)".
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If I were to bet, it involves a patent owned by FlightPrep. < the new JPI in the aviation world ;-) >
 
What a bummer. Runwayfinder was an easy to use, practical flight planning tool. I'm hoping Dave's expertise will find it's way into some of the other products we use (or will use...hint, hint, ;) ). I use Skyvector but it's just seems too cumbersome, IMO. This is what happens when a lawyer becomes an owner of a software company. The competition gets forced out of business, and we are all the worse for it. As far as I'm concerned, FP (including ASA) is down there with JPI for similar reasons.

P.S. I'm needing a new logbook, and I'm shopping around because I don't want one that has "ASA" on it. Just having it in my flight bag would make me airsick before I leave the hangar. :eek:
 
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The Pilots'n Paws forum provides links to both Skyvector and Runwayfinder to assist us in deciding whether or not we will commit to making a trip. Now we will have only one source for showing the trip, and SV is just not as user-friendly as RF, IMO. What a shame.
 
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rv7boy said:
What a bummer. Runwayfinder was an easy to use, practical flight planning tool. I'm hoping Dave's expertise will find it's way into some of the other products we use (or will use...hint, hint, ;) ). I use Skyvector but it's just not as good. This is what happens when a lawyer becomes an owner of a software company. The competition gets forced out of business, and we are all the worse for it. As far as I'm concerned, ASA is down there with JPI for similar reasons.

P.S. I'm needing a new logbook, and I'm shopping around because I don't want one that has "ASA" on it. Just having it in my flight bag would make me airsick before I leave the hangar. :eek:
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Not quite sure why you are linking ASA to FlightPrep. They are not the same company nor run by the same people. FlightPrep and its owners are no one I would ever care to talk to, let alone do business with for sure!! :mad: Not sure why you are talking about ASA.
 
Sounds like he had a hobby that we all liked... Then he dealt with legal issues, now the impending AeroNav fees, and the last bit does seem like he can't transfer/sell ownership. So...time for him to move on.

I really love runwayfinder, but I can't fault Dave for finally walking away from what has likely become a time/stress/money hole.


RVbySDI said:
Not sure why you are talking about ASA.
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"FlightPrep co-founder Roger Stenbock authors aviation training videos that are sold by ASA." per FlightPrep. And I think there was some other connection, but I don't remember.

There is a like a 100 page thread on it here where it's all hashed WWAAAYYY out though. :)
 
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I can't believe the genius' at Flight Prep weren't smart enough to hire Dave and expand his software. Too busy chasing court dates I guess. What a pathetic way to make a living.
 
DCat22 said:
Sounds like he had a hobby that we all liked... Then he dealt with legal issues, now the impending AeroNav fees, and the last bit does seem like he can't transfer/sell ownership. So...time for him to move on.

I really love runwayfinder, but I can't fault Dave for finally walking away from what has likely become a time/stress/money hole.




"FlightPrep co-founder Roger Stenbock authors aviation training videos that are sold by ASA." per FlightPrep. And I think there was some other connection, but I don't remember.

There is a like a 100 page thread on it here where it's all hashed WWAAAYYY out though. :)
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I am aware of the previous threads concerning FlightPrep. I contributed some to them myself. [edited: personal attacks deleted] I just find it difficult to punish a company (ASA) that only has a passing connection due to some "consulting" type of arrangement [yep, did it again...] You might as well boycott Ford Motor Company because they were a parent company to the company that manufactured the car that a certain Kennedy was driving when a certain tragic event occurred many years ago. That does not make sense at all to me.
 
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[deleted quotes with statements that violate forum rules; S. Buchanan]

Not the same at all (and bordering on some needless political statements...)...

Ford has no choice who buys it cars.

ASA can choose who it partners with for business.

People boycott advertisers of TV "news" shows and such all the time to make their point about the political (or other) positions of the TV show. Sometimes effective, sometimes not...but it's one way to hit the network in the wallet (and let sponsors know that *they* are affected as well).

I have managed to avoid ASA products since the whole patent garbage started, and will do my utmost to continue to do so. And I've told them why. And told FP that I will *never* use or purchase their products.

Perhaps if enough pilots said and did the same, ASA might cease their affiliation with these patent trolls. Then I could buy their merchandise again.

(And if anyone knows of a good alternative for their airframe, engine, prop, avionics log books, I'm all ears...thanks!).

Patent trolling is a ****-*** way to "earn" your money, and affects entire industries negatively. It's greedy, and in my opinion, unethical.
 
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[deleted quotes that violate forum rules; S. Buchanan]

Sorry, I didn't really mean for that to sound like I was arguing with you... More for anyone else who wanted to jump in, to read in more detail before we rehashed it all again.

But I bet we will anyway. :D

So.. I would have liked for ASA to suspend the Stenbock product line after/during the FlightPrep debacle though...that is a choice they can make in real-time vs. past affiliation. ASA still chooses to enrich Stenbock by their choice to continue selling his products. They could choose not to. I wouldn't hold it against them that they used to.
 
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I think the focal point here is really AeroNav - not so much FightPrep. The AeroNav fee changes seem to be more of the common denominator than the patent wars (which are probably being waged more quietly).

Specific to the AeroNav fees -

Runway Finder is going away.

Nacomatic is gone.

Chartbundle is going. (http://sdwflying.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2011-12-27T14:25:00-08:00&max-results=7)

For now, PDFPlates.Com, FltPlan.Com and NavMonster.Com are still chugging along. It's still unclear how the fee changes are going to affect them.

On the electronic front, I'm really hoping Naviator hangs in there.

Dan
 
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Thanks runwayfinder for 7 years of excellent website

Trying to get this tread back to the positive.
Runway finder has been a favorite of mine for many years. That was even before i knew it was a product of a fellow RVator. I wish Dave success or fun in his next hobby and hope it causes less headaches in the end.
 
This has been a favorite of mine. Runway finder has been appreciated.

I hope Dave has a good transition to something he likes in the future.
 
Does anyone know the actual terms/fees for accessing the FAA data? The excuse for the fees is that they are trying to recover costs of making the data available on line (highly questionable, but the likely real causes are another discussion).

I wonder if there isn't a really easy solution. If the FAA is basically charging by download, allowing the purchaser to distribute/resell the data with no additional payments to FAA, then the obvious solution is for the pilot community to go to an organization like Google. I'll bet that they would gladly pay the access fee, just to be able to place a few ads on the free download pages we (and the flight planning services) would go to to get the data.

Same principle would apply if a couple of alphabet aviation organizations (hint hint) got together & paid the fees out of member dues & then put them out there via Bit Torrent.

This would very easily sidestep the real reason the fees have suddenly appeared.

Charlie
 
rv7charlie said:
If the FAA is basically charging by download, allowing the purchaser to distribute/resell the data with no additional payments to FAA
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Nope. That is not what the FAA is proposing. The FAA is proposing the purchaser (aka the software companies/websites) pay to download the data from the FAA, and then pay an additional license fee for EACH USER who then uses that data.

The FAA is also proposing a requirement for each software company to also copyright the data provided by the FAA, thereby preventing anyone else from using the data for other purposes. The FAA is not allowed to copyright public data (by law), but by requiring the software companies to copyright the data, the are effectively taking the data out of the public domain.
 
It's sad to see Runwayfinder go, but I have to admit I haven't used it since the FlightPrep debacle anyway. Aeronav is taking the chart and AFD business private, just like NavCanada did with the Canadian airspace data a number of years ago. That means there is no electronic data without paying through the nose for it or obtaining it though back doors.

If the real cost was the Internet bandwidth, they could fix that in a heartbeat by distributing through BitTorrent. I suspect the real costs are the preparation costs, which have probably lost funding over the years. Those costs will exist despite the distribution method chosen, so they need to recover them.
 
DanBaier said:
I think the focal point here is really AeroNav - not so much FightPrep. The AeroNav fee changes seem to be more of the common denominator than the patent wars (which are probably being waged more quietly).

Specific to the AeroNav fees -

Runway Finder is going away.

Nacomatic is gone.

Chartbundle is going. (http://sdwflying.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2011-12-27T14:25:00-08:00&max-results=7)

For now, PDFPlates.Com, FltPlan.Com and NavMonster.Com are still chugging along. It's still unclear how the fee changes are going to affect them.

On the electronic front, I'm really hoping Naviator hangs in there.

Dan
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I'm really sad to see Runwayfinder go. Back before I started PDFPlates.com, and actually enjoyed flying as a hobby (yep, it has ruined it), I used Dave's site before every flight. It would be great if he could leave it up as is, with expired data, because it is great for back of the envelope, how far, how long type of planning. But, without current weather maybe not as useful. I can completely see where he is coming from. Running this type of website is maintenance intensive and takes away from personal and family time.

As for PDFPlates, we're still waiting to see what the Aeronav fee structure will be before we make any decisions on the future of the website.

Thanks for everything, Dave!
 
I use AirNav as my online AFD, which links Runway Finder for charts. I hate to see RF go (add my thanks, Dave, for the years of service) and I shudder to think of the other services we use that will be affected.

I'm having trouble following the money trail. Is this an FAA thing to offset the user fees they've failed to get or is it a funding issue for NOAA, where the data actually comes from?
 
flion said:
I'm having trouble following the money trail. Is this an FAA thing to offset the user fees they've failed to get or is it a funding issue for NOAA, where the data actually comes from?
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If you believe what the FAA is telling us, they need to cover their costs of production and distribution, and charts have never been free. The digital charts were free to this point because they couldn't figure out how to charge you for it. Now, that is changing. However, a (mostly) direct quote from Fred Anderson of the FAA at the recent meeting with industry:

They want to stop the "guy in the basement" from distributing charts.

So, while I find that personally insulting (and told them so), there also seem to be other motives behind this (strictly my opinion).
 
follow the money is right

Consider the effort several years ago to 'privatize' government owned weather satellites. Who would benefit from that?

Consider the 'user fee' issue, & the fact that the airlines are happy with the idea.
Who would benefit from that?

Consider the current chart data situation, & the fact that only a few 'big dog' distributors can handle the fees.
Who benefits from that?

See a pattern yet?

Charlie
 
In the end, is this process:

1) Improving GA safety
2) Degrading GA safety
3) No impact to GA safety
 
While slightly off topic, this rehash of an old topic is timely. I walked past FlightPrep's booth at Sun N Fun last year. Not a sole was stopping to talk to them.
 
Thanks, Dave Parsons for seven great years of RunwayFinder

plehrke said:
Trying to get this tread back to the positive.
Runway finder has been a favorite of mine for many years. That was even before i knew it was a product of a fellow RVator. I wish Dave success or fun in his next hobby and hope it causes less headaches in the end.
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I can't say it any better than the post I quoted here. Thanks again, Dave.

P.S. I believe today, being the last day of February, marks the end of RunwayFinder.
 
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