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Help-- Bill of Sale form

BlackRV7

BlackRV7

Well Known Member
Bill of Sale

OK, time to get the ball rolling on registering this pile of lumium. Do I need the bill of sale from Van's? I am registering this airplane as an Overall 7, Dana 7, Sure Hope it Flies 7, not an RV-7. Anyway, what exactly is on that Bill of Sale and, do I need it?
 
Yup - just give Van's a call, and they know exactly what you need - they do them every week. (And unless the FAA has changed the rules, yes, you need it...)

Paul
 
It's a RV-7

BlackRV7 said:
OK, time to get the ball rolling on registering this pile of lumium. Do I need the bill of sale from Van's? I am registering this airplane as an Overall 7, Dana 7, Sure Hope it Flies 7, not an RV-7. Anyway, what exactly is on that Bill of Sale and, do I need it?
Click to expand...

Dana ... the FAA would prefer that you called it a RV-7.

This is from AC 20-27F CERTIFICATION AND OPERATION OF AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT

(1) Identification Information. If you built the aircraft from your design, and the model designation and serial number are not used for any other aircraft, you may use whatever number you want. If you built the aircraft from a plan or a kit, use the identification information provided by the plan designer or kit manufacturer. Make sure the information is the same as you have shown on AC Form 8050-88. Place this information on the identification plate as described in the following table.

This is the link to the AC

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/0ca2845e2aafffbb86256dbf00640cb2/$FILE/AC20-27F.pdf

The Bill of Sale info is also in the AC...

Gil in Tucson ... gotta keep that paperwork straight...
 
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From Gil in AZ: Dana ... the FAA would prefer that you called it a RV-7.

Key word here, prefer. You don't have to, so mine will certainly not be an RV for tax purposes.

I need to be callin Van's to get that BOS.

This is getting to be as much fun as ordering my emp!!!!
 
Maybe Doug could put a 'Registration' section on his site, add airworthiness to below

Hi Dana...I'm getting pretty good at this :) :

It's actually pretty simple - First, get your 'N' Number:

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_inquiry.asp

Once you verify (select/reserve) an available 'N' number
you'll need to mail in:

1-FAA form 8050-1 (registration form is NOT available for download...you can pick them up at your local FBO or I have spares if you need one)

2-FAA form 8050-88 affidavit of ownership (notorized) http://tinyurl.com/yyutel

3-FAA form 8050-2 Bill of Sale (call Vans, Cindy mails them out on Fridays)
http://forms.faa.gov/forms/ac8050-2.pdf

Mail a check for $15 (or $5 if you reserved your 'N' number online) to:

FAA Aircraft Registration Branch, AFS-750
P.O. Box 25504
Oklahoma City, OK 73125-0504

You can contact the FAA registration at 866-762-9434 if you have questions.

Good luck with your paperwork :D .

Maybe Doug could put a 'Registration' section on his site, add airworthiness information to the above.....EVERYBODY asks this stuff a dozen times before their RV flies :) !!

Rick at the Buffalo Farm
http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
 
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BlackRV7 said:
From Gil in AZ: Dana ... the FAA would prefer that you called it a RV-7.

Key word here, prefer. You don't have to, so mine will certainly not be an RV for tax purposes.

I need to be callin Van's to get that BOS.

This is getting to be as much fun as ordering my emp!!!!
Click to expand...

Dana...it may be stronger than a "prefer" - especialy if you have a BOS...

Time to pick a friendly DAR and buy him lots of beer... he has to accept your paperwork.... :)

gil in Tucson
 
Non RV, RV

Thanks to all, including those off the list.

Gil, I appreciate your input and guideance. However:), I have heard from several people and know a couple who did just as I am going to do. I bought the kit from Van's but..................made a couple modifications (ie., drilled new wire routing holes) so I deviated from the plans:) Gil, in the real world, people do this all the time. But your idea of beer and bribery sounds good too me.

Cheers, like I heard someone else say.."there's a time to build and a time to fly....the time to build is quickly coming to an end"!!!
 
What is the tax advantage?

What is the tax advantage you mentioned?

Also, what will this do to your insurance rates?
 
I did this very thing when I registered my RV-6, er...A&M-6, in '92. There is no problem with calling it whatever you wish. The possible tax advantage is that when the tax man comes around, there is a "base" out there on RV-6s, to my knowledge, there is only 1 A&M-6. This may or may not work depending how deep you tax man wants to dig. (YMMV).
My insurance rate is the same as any other RV-6.
 
Not to hijack this thread (but I will anyway), but I have a question on when it is appropriate to submit for registration. I have finished the wings (except for the push tubes), and I have ordered the fuselage and finishing kit. We are planning on financing the engine, and I am not sure how it will work out -- can the plane be registered before I install the engine? I think the lending company will required the plane to be registered during/before we complete the paperwork (I think I read this somewhere). Anyone have any experiences with this????

Thanks!
 
Brantel said:
What is the tax advantage you mentioned?
Click to expand...

The taxman won't be able to go on tradeaplane and do a search for 3 RV-7s and average the value. He will have to take the information you give him as far as how much the plane is worth. I was told this by my EAA TA. I am working on my RV-8 and will make the fastback and cowling conversion, so I am seriously thinking about doing the same thing. I would be interested on so feedback after you do this.
 
Gil,

Why would a DAR care what you call your plane? Don't you have to have it registered before you get it inspected? Since it is registered, I don't see why a DAR would care about what you call it as long as it is airworthy.

Of course I'm not up to this point yet so I don't have any real life experience, but I am planning to register my plane soon though just to stop the $10/year fee for the N-number assignment. We don't have property tax on planes in NY so that is not an issue for me, but I have seen a number of RVs that are not called RVs. I'm sure Van would be more than happy if you call it something different, especially if you modify it a lot.
 
Paperwork

ptrotter said:
Gil,

Why would a DAR care what you call your plane? Don't you have to have it registered before you get it inspected? Since it is registered, I don't see why a DAR would care about what you call it as long as it is airworthy.

Of course I'm not up to this point yet so I don't have any real life experience, but I am planning to register my plane soon though just to stop the $10/year fee for the N-number assignment. We don't have property tax on planes in NY so that is not an issue for me, but I have seen a number of RVs that are not called RVs. I'm sure Van would be more than happy if you call it something different, especially if you modify it a lot.
Click to expand...

Paul.... I was pointing out that the DAR must check and accept all of your paperwork, and I believe he uses the AC 20-27 as a guide.

This includes the registration (and hence the model name) documents. If it's not correctly registered, you can't fly it... :)

NY state may not have a yearly personal property tax (it's $25 in AZ for Experimentals and gliders), butit probably has a "use tax" which is magically the same rate as your sales tax. Be careful that a registration now won't trigger a use tax bill from the state. It did with my Tiger when I changed it from a LLC to private ownership....

gil in Tucson - the FAA runs on paperwork... :rolleyes:
 
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Paul,
Be sure to read Gil's last paragraph closely. While we are not charged a property tax on aircraft in NY, the state WILL have their hand out for their share. There is a form to get from the state tax dept to do this with. Should be the sales tax rate in your county. Form #ST130 is what you need to request from Albany.
 
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Registration

A little prior experience: In KY I had an N number reserved for my plastic/wood airplane and got an initial tax bill based an a value of $28,000. I had about $1500 worth of parts at that time. I ask how in world that figure came about since I only had an N number. They checked their records and TradeAPlane, based on the manufacturers standard name. Good, bad, whatever....it is going to be me who values this airplane based on what I know is installed, not some arbritray assessment. I don't have to argue with them again, it took three years to take care of it before. No more.

Yes, NORDO................I'm coming to gitcha:)
 
as said

if you modify too much vans doesnt want there name on it. so it has to be a willy wonka 7a if you installed retracts/floats or whatever other mods beyond the norm.
 
I would guess that Vans would only issue a Bill of Sale to the original purchaser. If you are buying a partially built kit, what documentation will you need to register when you are done, just a receipt from the original owner? Any suggestions on how you would document the work that had been completed vs the work left to do so that you could apply for the repairmens certificate?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Greg
 
Thanks Gil,

I'm quite aware of the use/sales tax issues and have all the forms to pay the tax properly. Taxes are one of those things I don't play around with too much. There is too much chance of it coming back to bite you someday. One of my projects before the end of the year is to figure out what I bought that I didn't already pay tax on and "give the devil his due", so to speak :) I'll probably register the plane at the same time so the timing matches up.

Dana, It is interesting that KY tried to tax you on the N-number. My N-number reservation has only my name and address and no info on the plane itself (since it didn't exist when I made the reservatoin), so I don't see how they could come up with a value.
 
J5Cub said:
I would guess that Vans would only issue a Bill of Sale to the original purchaser. If you are buying a partially built kit, what documentation will you need to register when you are done, just a receipt from the original owner? Any suggestions on how you would document the work that had been completed vs the work left to do so that you could apply for the repairmens certificate?
Click to expand...
Greg,
Vans will issue a Bill of Sale to you if you bought a partial built kit from someone. You just need to call Vans and tell them you have purchased Kit # xxxx from so and so. They may require you to show documentation of the sale but once they have the information they will register the kit under your name instead of that other so and so. :p After that whenever you get your kit ready for registration call them and they will send you a Bill of Sale for the registration.
 
robjohnson said:
Not to hijack this thread (but I will anyway), but I have a question on when it is appropriate to submit for registration
Click to expand...
2-3 months before you finish the plane. I just received my registration and it only took a few weeks.

Dave
 
RVbySDI said:
Greg,
Vans will issue a Bill of Sale to you if you bought a partial built kit from someone. You just need to call Vans and tell them you have purchased Kit # xxxx from so and so. They may require you to show documentation of the sale but once they have the information they will register the kit under your name instead of that other so and so. :p After that whenever you get your kit ready for registration call them and they will send you a Bill of Sale for the registration.
Click to expand...


Steve,

Thanks for the information. I have been trying to purchase a flying RV before it got too late for my wife to enjoy it with me but it looks like I missed that window. I have found a RV7 QB kit that sounds pretty good so I may be building soon and was wondering about the logistics.

Greg
 
Years....

ptrotter said:
Thanks Gil,

I'm quite aware of the use/sales tax issues and have all the forms to pay the tax properly. Taxes are one of those things I don't play around with too much. There is too much chance of it coming back to bite you someday. One of my projects before the end of the year is to figure out what I bought that I didn't already pay tax on and "give the devil his due", so to speak :) I'll probably register the plane at the same time so the timing matches up.

Dana, It is interesting that KY tried to tax you on the N-number. My N-number reservation has only my name and address and no info on the plane itself (since it didn't exist when I made the reservatoin), so I don't see how they could come up with a value.
Click to expand...

Paul... in the 70's when the FAA first allowed custom N numbers, you asked for a N number against a particular plane..... sometimes this was a kit that was still under construction.

Some time later, they changed to the "reserve the N number only" method... I would guess partly because numbers got placed on planes that were never completed....

I bet Dana had his troubles with the state tax guys in the 80's or early 90's.... :)

I got N33GA for my sailplane in 1976 or so, and that was pretty early on in the custom number availablity...

gil in Tucson
 
Some time later, they changed to the "reserve the N number only" method... I would guess partly because numbers got placed on planes that were never completed....

I bet Dana had his troubles with the state tax guys in the 80's or early 90's.... :)

gil in Tucson[/QUOTE]

Yes, that was in 1997 or 98. I called our property valuation commissioner this time around. He remembered the go-round we had last time and was very understanding this time. Since I am in the process of getting all my paperwork together, there won't me much time between reserving a number and issuing to my DO7, serial number 001. Since I am a CPA I have a little bit of dealings with the taxing authorities. I am going to wait until after Jan. 1, as property tax is assessable on holdings as of 1/1 but aren't issued until after 1/1 the following year. Thus I get one free year on top of the one year delay in them getting bills out.


Another question though in this process. Do you have to show payment of any applicable sales tax before you can get your airworthyness? The reason I ask, is I can report, and pay, the use tax on my KY 740 individual tax form.........thus kinda sliding it in:) Sounds crooked doesn't it.........don't worry, it isn't. If not, I'll have to pony up the money now.
 
One more question if I may.

I am sure that there are RVs that have been assembled from kits from multiple sources so does anyone know how Vans handles the serial number issue when kits are purchased from multiple owners.

In other words, if I purchased a tail kit from Van's and then purchased the wings, fuselage, and finish kit from someone else, would I register the aircraft under my serial number or one of the others? Would I need to get the sellers of each kit to let Vans know that I purchased each one?

Thanks for your help. I expect to have an RV project by Thanksgiving so I need to clean up a couple more details like this.

Greg
 
I did end up purchasing an RV8 kit that had a N number reserved against it. project is a quick build that isn't too far beyond having the empennage completed so it is a long way from being completed.

I hope someone can answer a couple of questions.

1) Does this mean that the Bill of Sale is no longer needed as it is already registered?

2) Do I need an FAA change of ownership form for this since the N number is assigned to it?

3) I do not plan on using the N number he reserved so could he just let the N number reservation expire and I pull a new one?

4) He is listed as the manufacturer but since I am going to do the majority of the work and may even build a new empennage, can I get that changed?

If no one has run into this I guess that I can call the FAA but I wonder if they would even know the answers.

Thanks in advance,
Greg
 
J5Cub said:
I did end up purchasing an RV8 kit that had a N number reserved against it. project is a quick build that isn't too far beyond having the empennage completed so it is a long way from being completed.

I hope someone can answer a couple of questions.

1) Does this mean that the Bill of Sale is no longer needed as it is already registered?

2) Do I need an FAA change of ownership form for this since the N number is assigned to it?

3) I do not plan on using the N number he reserved so could he just let the N number reservation expire and I pull a new one?

4) He is listed as the manufacturer but since I am going to do the majority of the work and may even build a new empennage, can I get that changed?

If no one has run into this I guess that I can call the FAA but I wonder if they would even know the answers.

Thanks in advance,
Greg
Click to expand...

The reserved N number, is only reserved in a persons name, and not yet assigned to the aircraft. It will expire every year without renewal. You can reserve a new number anytime you wish over the internet. Ten bucks a year. If the number is only reserved, it is not registered.
 
L.Adamson said:
The reserved N number, is only reserved in a persons name, and not yet assigned to the aircraft. It will expire every year without renewal. You can reserve a new number anytime you wish over the internet. Ten bucks a year. If the number is only reserved, it is not registered.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately some builders are assigning their aircraft information including serial numbers to the N Numbers. The FAA now considers this an aircraft and I was told that they have to be deregistered. I am afraid that the number will now end up like all the "revoked" numbers you find when you search the n numbers.

The kit that I purchased fell into this catagory. I purchased aircraft kit parts and not a completed airplane (which it is not) so I do not want to transfer the registration. I talked to the State Tax folks and they said that if I transfered the registration they would hit me up for sales tax based on what they felt it would be worth completed. I would then have to appeal the amount but would still end up paying sales tax immediately.

I have asked the previous owner to deregister the aircraft since it was never completed but I am not sure he will be doing it. If he doesn't I may have problems later because the serial number has already been used but I will have to deal with that when the time comes I guess.

Greg.
 
Plans Availability?

This is a question, not a statement...Is there something in the regs about plans availability? If so, and not calling airplane a Van's whatever, then would one to need to produce own plans? Perhaps depends on FSDO, DAR? Also, when you insure the aircraft, and if you get hull insurance, you will need to state a value, that you may not want to conflict with a stated tax value?

Link McGarity
RV6/N42GF/flying, for sale
RV10/N41GF rsvd/tailcone
 
wv4i said:
This is a question, not a statement...Is there something in the regs about plans availability? If so, and not calling airplane a Van's whatever, then would one to need to produce own plans? Perhaps depends on FSDO, DAR? Also, when you insure the aircraft, and if you get hull insurance, you will need to state a value, that you may not want to conflict with a stated tax value?

Link McGarity
RV6/N42GF/flying, for sale
RV10/N41GF rsvd/tailcone
Click to expand...
I don't know about the plans question/statement but others have said you need the Bill of Sale from Vans to get an RV registered.

As far as the tax value, I will not cheat the State out of their once of blood when I register the aircraft, I just don't want to pay it now when I'm a couple of years away from flying and it is not worth anywhere near what they are going to say it is.

Greg
 
Gentlemen,
I am building a "7" and have completed my empennage kit. Through this site I found a wing, fuselage and empennage kit for sale. What type of "Bill of Sale" form have others used to document this sale and transfer of kits numbers to Van's?
I also plan to sell the newly acquired assembled empennage kit and keep my own (sentimental reasons only). I will need this same form to document the transfer to its' future owner.

I found Aircraft Bill of Sale form AC Form 8050-2, but this is more for completed aircraft.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Eddie Edwards
Richmond, Virginia
RV7 ( in progress)
 
I've done it two ways:

Note scrawled on a scrap of paper, in pencil (empennage kit)

Formal bill of sale (standard form like you find all over the place online), for my wings.

I don't think Vans cares. And, it isn't an airplane yet so the FAA doesn't care, either.
 
I asked that question of Vans tech help and they said the registered owner of the plans or kit needed to fax Vans a signed note with the serial number on it stating who it was sold to.
 
Bill of sale

You can use the FAA forms. Just line thru 'aircraft' and write in 'kit.'
 
Thanks For Help!

To All that have replied,

Thanks for the common sense advise. I will be sending Van's a letter this week.

Regards,

Eddie Edwareds
RV7 ( in the works)
 
Van's Bill of Sale

I had a discussion with another builder last night and we touched on a subject I haven't given any thought to.
Does Van's provide some sort of Final Bill of Sale. As opposed to the various check receipts I have for the different sub assemblies.

1. Is this something I will need for registration?
2. Do I request it at time of ordering Finishing Kit?

The builder I was speaking with suggested that Van's was reluctant to give a final bill of sale as this removed any control they might have over transfer of planes.

Appreciate any thoughts or comments.
Tom H.
 
I recieved my Bill of Sale from Van's once I had all the basic components and was near completion of the plane. Just Notify them when you are nearly done and getting near certification.

For the best information about how and why Van's does things, give them a call.

Roberta
 
Bill of Sale from vans

tomhanaway said:
I had a discussion with another builder last night and we touched on a subject I haven't given any thought to.
Does Van's provide some sort of Final Bill of Sale. As opposed to the various check receipts I have for the different sub assemblies.

1. Is this something I will need for registration?
Click to expand...

Yes.

2. Do I request it at time of ordering Finishing Kit?

The builder I was speaking with suggested that Van's was reluctant to give a final bill of sale as this removed any control they might have over transfer of planes.

Appreciate any thoughts or comments.
Tom H.
Click to expand...

I had no trouble getting a bill of sale from Vans. Just call them up and ask for one. You will need it for various forms, including registering your kit as an aircraft.
 
Routine and expected...

I remember when I called Van's for mine, I heard something like "Oh, I do those every Wednesday, so you should have it next Mondya..." or something like that. In other words, it's part of their normal weekly routine, sending those out to folks that are ready to register.

Paul
 
I had to register early to get financing. I just called and explained what I needed. They were very helpful.

Karl
 
I have also heard that they will not give you another copy if you lose the ones they originally sent.
 
Vans Bill f sale

#1. Vans sends you a bill of sale but it does not have any priceing listed on it. You do not need priceing to obtain your registration #.

#2. I lost my first bill of sale and I had no problems getting a new one.
 
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