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  #11  
Old 04-12-2021, 04:47 PM
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BlackhawkSP BlackhawkSP is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymo View Post
I see my fair share of poor workmanship, as well, but wouldn't say the RV world is worse than the type certified.

That said, one RV-8 I did a CI on last year had 3 out of 4 jam nuts on the elevator all the way loose - but get this - with torque stripe paint on them spanning the gap between the nut and base where it should have been seated.

An RV-7 had so much counter weight installed on the elevator it was bending at the point where the counter weight extension met the elevator. Probably took a pound of lead off each side to get it balanced (flying since 2011).
I've been helping out a local guy straighten out an RV that he paid a supposedly A&P AND an IA finish putting it together. I could not believe some of the things that this guy did !! Wire terminals smashed on with needle nosed pliers, non-standard (house) wiring, leaky brake lines that I figured out that he used a 42 degree house plumbing flaring tool on, to name a few. Amazing !!!
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Larry Anderson
Indianapolis
RV-Super 8 N88XT SOLD
RV-10 QB N38LA Flying
Helicopter Instructor Pilot
Standardization I.P.
Instrument Examiner
U.S. Army Retired
EMS Pilot for LifeLine
At IU Health Retired :-)
Although Exempt,
Donated for 2021
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  #12  
Old 04-12-2021, 05:54 PM
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wirejock wirejock is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Estes Park, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarne View Post
Oh interesting, I didn't know this was a thing. But was it ever done that way on a -7 kit? I have never heard of it on a -7.
My guess is they tried to balance the control surface with all the linkage and controls attached. Can't imaging 1 lb.
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Larry Larson
Estes Park, CO
http://wirejockrv7a.blogspot.com
wirejock at yahoo dot com
Donated 01/01/2021, plus a little extra.
RV-7A #73391, N511RV reserved (2,000+ hours)
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Disclaimer
I cannot be, nor will I be, held responsible if you try to do the same things I do and it does not work and/or causes you loss, injury, or even death in the process.
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  #13  
Old 04-12-2021, 06:25 PM
Kyle Boatright Kyle Boatright is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarne View Post
Oh interesting, I didn't know this was a thing. But was it ever done that way on a -7 kit? I have never heard of it on a -7.
Sometime after I painted my airplane (circa 1999/2000) Van's started offering pre-cast counterweights. My counterweights are a mass of lead sinkers embedded in epoxy.
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Marietta, GA
2001 RV-6 N46KB
2019(?) RV-10
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  #14  
Old 04-12-2021, 06:34 PM
xkape xkape is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: East PA
Posts: 17
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Over the years I have seen some very sketchy stuff from certified aircraft over the years, and honestly I would say that 90% of home built experimentals have much higher build quality compared to 90% of certified aircraft. Owner maintenance scares the **** out of me, as well as some of the stuff that happens at shady flight schools.
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  #15  
Old 04-13-2021, 06:20 AM
BillL BillL is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackhawkSP View Post
I've been helping out a local guy straighten out an RV that he paid a supposedly A&P AND an IA finish putting it together. I could not believe some of the things that this guy did !! Wire terminals smashed on with needle nosed pliers, non-standard (house) wiring, leaky brake lines that I figured out that he used a 42 degree house plumbing flaring tool on, to name a few. Amazing !!!
Funny!! I once left a meeting arrangement to two PhD's in different locations. It was poorly done and did not happen. Each assumed the other was picking up the slack and catching the details, like time, date and agenda. And they were both valuable guys too. Just not their thing.

I bet those A&P/IA's could inspect the @#$%^& out of the paperwork.

Sometimes the elevator does not go to the bottom floor.
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Bill

RV-7
Lord Kelvin:
I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about,
and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you
cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge
is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind.

Last edited by BillL : 04-13-2021 at 06:24 AM.
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  #16  
Old 04-13-2021, 11:17 AM
JDeanda JDeanda is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ventura, CA
Posts: 236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ty1295 View Post
I dove head first into the experimental world a few years ago, and have been almost full time building and repairing them in that time. I have am a Manufacturing Engineer by trade with a lot of experience in machining.

Having now finished my own RV9A, and been helping other RV owners with their airplanes in the last 2 years I am amazed at what I am seeing and rather ashamed of what I am seeing.

For example.
  • Speaker wire for the mag wiring.
  • Missing Landing Gear Mount bolts on both sides
  • No control stops on any axis (unless you call the panel a stop)
  • Excessive 90 deg fittings on fuel lines, sometimes 2 components mounted on different surfaces connected via rigid 90's.
  • "Lower spark plugs stripped out, unable to perform compression test." Followed by A&P signing airplane off as airworthy.
  • AP servo's that can overcenter and lock up controls.
  • Lack of large washers on rod ends.


The list goes on. Of course we are fixing these issues, but for the owners they all thought they owned a safe airplane. I am sure others have more stories.

How do we help fix this? I really think RV's could have a safety record as good or better than certified, if these type issues along with pilot training was improved.
Jeff, I'm sorry your A&P and IA let you down. I'm also sorry when home builders don't perform well. I am a long time A&P, I've been fooling around with little airplanes for decades, both as a career and an avocation, (I love 'em!) and I've seen plenty of problems on amateur-built and type-certificated airplanes. I'm not sure if homebuilts are worse than TCed airplanes, I don't care, and I'm very uncomfortable with the finger pointing. People are people, misteaks, shortcuts and outright bad moves are made by all of them. I see no profit trying to figure out which is which. To answer your final question, suggest the only way to fix this is for folks like to you and I to continue to be vigilant to find and fix things whenever we can. We are all always looking, refining, fixing, improving and tweaking these machines because none of them are perfect or ever will be. In this game, the journey to perfection is the thing, not the destination because we can't get there. And like Ron Reagan said, "Trust, but verify," no matter who built it, modified it or maintained it.
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  #17  
Old 04-13-2021, 11:55 AM
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Roadjunkie1 Roadjunkie1 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Erie, Colorado
Posts: 162
Default YIKES!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDeanda View Post
I've been fooling around with little airplanes for decades, both as a career and an avocation, (I love 'em!) and I've seen plenty of problems on amateur-built and type-certificated airplanes. And like Ron Reagan said, "Trust, but verify," no matter who built it, modified it or maintained it.
When I am visiting a build, I, of course, nose around looking at things, how things were put together. Again, I have seen some OMG things. If it is something minor, I may not say anything. Glairing: probably. Egregious: I have no problem pointing things out. I approach it differently depending on who it is and what the problem is. Sometimes, just a suggestion: this may work better if you do this.... Most people appreciate the input. Sometimes you look at things for so long during a build, everything that you have looked at a hundred times looks OK. I had airplane people over to look at my build often, or they would just drop by. Rivet gun noise attracts attention!

Anyone building should be thankful people come look at your project. One: it's cool to show it of. Two: they may find something you are not seeing. I had two A&Ps look over SuzieQ before her first flight just to make sure I was not missing something.

I was working on a Cessna 172 once and was under the panel doing something. Their control system (yokes? Who put THOSE in an airplane?) is linked right to left with a gear and chain system. That chain is held together with a really small bolt, castellated nut with a tiny tiny cotter key through it. It freaked me out at the time the importance of that ONE TINY cotter key! There are no "minor" parts in an airplane! At least not many!
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  #18  
Old 04-13-2021, 12:14 PM
Mike6A Mike6A is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: CA
Posts: 9
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Once worked for a parts company. Guy asked for brake parts and gave him what he needed per serial number. He asked what to do with them and told him to give them to his mechanic. He said he was the mechanic.🤢😧😳
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  #19  
Old 04-13-2021, 12:33 PM
ty1295 ty1295 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Jeffersonville, IN
Posts: 450
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Just to clarify, non of these issues were on my airplane or done by an A&P I hired. They are in fact RV's brought to myself and my buddy to do work on their airplanes, most likely due to our attention to detail and knowledge.

The last airplane in question, is one well documented on this forum from a past "rebuild" combined with an older A&P that signed it off for the last 2 years.

What should have been a normal conditional inspection of 2 days, has turned into several weeks, cylinders being removed for stripped spark plugs, lots of fuel delivery issues, flight control issues, baffle cracks, etc. All of them were there on the last inspection which was signed off.

As someone now fixing other RV's I am just seeing issues that are scary and our desire to make RV's safer, and educate others on how to build safe RV's is our goal.
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RV9A First Flight 9/30/19
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  #20  
Old 04-13-2021, 01:32 PM
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BlackhawkSP BlackhawkSP is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ty1295 View Post
Just to clarify, non of these issues were on my airplane or done by an A&P I hired. They are in fact RV's brought to myself and my buddy to do work on their airplanes, most likely due to our attention to detail and knowledge.

The last airplane in question, is one well documented on this forum from a past "rebuild" combined with an older A&P that signed it off for the last 2 years.

What should have been a normal conditional inspection of 2 days, has turned into several weeks, cylinders being removed for stripped spark plugs, lots of fuel delivery issues, flight control issues, baffle cracks, etc. All of them were there on the last inspection which was signed off.

As someone now fixing other RV's I am just seeing issues that are scary and our desire to make RV's safer, and educate others on how to build safe RV's is our goal.

Good on you !!! Your priorities and intentions are spot on, and in line with all good builders !!!
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Larry Anderson
Indianapolis
RV-Super 8 N88XT SOLD
RV-10 QB N38LA Flying
Helicopter Instructor Pilot
Standardization I.P.
Instrument Examiner
U.S. Army Retired
EMS Pilot for LifeLine
At IU Health Retired :-)
Although Exempt,
Donated for 2021
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