Wife had a good question that I couldn't answer: How many who built a 2 seater wished later they had built a 4 seater? I'm planning on getting started with the RV-7A, and know the RV-10A will be more cost and time, but she has a valid question. Also, I'm not sure how many people are clamoring to take a trip in a 4 seat "experiemental" aircraft. On the other hand, I dont' want to build something and end up wishing we had something else. Any thoughts?
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2 Seat vs 4 Seat???
- Thread starter Stalldog
- Start date
hydroguy2
Well Known Member
some days I wish I had built a -10. We would love to load the grandkids up and fly to the coast or grand canyon, etc. BUT I figured the initial cost would have been 50% more(which I didn't have) and daily fuel would be another 50% increase(also don't have). Plus if I had a -10, I would also want a -3 or 4 or Citabria for the local solo runs, and I definitely can't afford 2 airplanes
David Paule
Well Known Member
You need a plane with twice as many seats as the number of occupants that routinely fly together.
This allows for trips with friends.
Dave
This allows for trips with friends.
Dave
rleffler
Well Known Member
Russ McCutcheon
Well Known Member
Here?s how I answer that same question for myself. I can only afford one airplane so witch one fits the mission I most often fly? I most often fly solo and sometimes I like to bring the wife or a friend and even less often I wish I could bring the whole family, I wish I had a -10 for those times but I can only afford one. How often do I want to fly around buy myself in a -10 burning twice the fuel going nowhere on a local flight and not doing any acro? For me the choice is two seats with acro capability, I have a Chevy suburban to haul the whole family around in.
4 seater
I went through this same scenario before we ordered. My wife and I have no kids but we love dogs and always will have one. I wanted an -8 for aerobatics, tailwheel, cost and build time. She wanted a -10 for no aerobatics and extra room. It's easy to spend a lot of money on the -10 with panel space, engine and a lot of interior. I am happy with the decision since we take friends and always have room for our sh-tuff. Camping at johnson creek is easy with our fold out kitchen, 6 man REI tent, blow -up queen mattress, cooler and Golden Retriever. I know Scott S has an -8 tail waiting to be built and also looking at the Highlander. There is no way you can make one aircraft do everything but the -10 almost does it all. I thought it might be $40,000 more for the ten but I think I went over that number quite a bit. As far as fuel burn, even LOP I plan on 12 GPH and it comes out pretty close on 1:30-2:00 flights due to the rich climb. Once up I will burn 8.5 to 10.5 GPH so the longer 4 hour flights become cheaper per hour. Most of the time (at altitude) my fuel mileage on the G3X shows 17-20 MPG so pretty good compared to an SUV plus we're going a lot faster.
I went through this same scenario before we ordered. My wife and I have no kids but we love dogs and always will have one. I wanted an -8 for aerobatics, tailwheel, cost and build time. She wanted a -10 for no aerobatics and extra room. It's easy to spend a lot of money on the -10 with panel space, engine and a lot of interior. I am happy with the decision since we take friends and always have room for our sh-tuff. Camping at johnson creek is easy with our fold out kitchen, 6 man REI tent, blow -up queen mattress, cooler and Golden Retriever. I know Scott S has an -8 tail waiting to be built and also looking at the Highlander. There is no way you can make one aircraft do everything but the -10 almost does it all. I thought it might be $40,000 more for the ten but I think I went over that number quite a bit. As far as fuel burn, even LOP I plan on 12 GPH and it comes out pretty close on 1:30-2:00 flights due to the rich climb. Once up I will burn 8.5 to 10.5 GPH so the longer 4 hour flights become cheaper per hour. Most of the time (at altitude) my fuel mileage on the G3X shows 17-20 MPG so pretty good compared to an SUV plus we're going a lot faster.
both!
I solved the problem thus: RV4 for fun flying (cost around 40K) and 1/2 partnership in Piper Arrow (1/2 for 30K). So, I have 70K in planes which is way less than RV10. I do have additional maintenance costs, insurance and such but I still think it is less $ per year than the more expensive plane, it might be close though.
BTW, it is painful flying the arrow after the RV. I almost never want to fly the arrow for fun.
I solved the problem thus: RV4 for fun flying (cost around 40K) and 1/2 partnership in Piper Arrow (1/2 for 30K). So, I have 70K in planes which is way less than RV10. I do have additional maintenance costs, insurance and such but I still think it is less $ per year than the more expensive plane, it might be close though.
BTW, it is painful flying the arrow after the RV. I almost never want to fly the arrow for fun.
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N941WR
Legacy Member
We were very happy with 2 seats right up until my wife said she was prego. Now it would be nice to have an extra seat or two. If it wasn't for the mini-me, we would be good with two seats.
I'm looking to get hooked up with someone with a four seater who wants a part time partner for the few times a year when we need those two extra seats.
I'm looking to get hooked up with someone with a four seater who wants a part time partner for the few times a year when we need those two extra seats.
Nick
Well Known Member
As others have said, it all depends on your mission. The -10 is probably the best single engine x-country airplane I've ever flown. That being said, I have been loving the -7 I've been flying the last few weeks. Burns less, controls are lighter, and of course it's aerobatic! I won't give up our -10, but I now have a whole bunch of motivation to get my -8 flying.
Phyrcooler
Well Known Member
This highlights the issue wherein many would like to see a slightly smaller, Tiger style, O-360 powered RV. It is quite a jump cost-wise from RV-7/9 to RV-10.
comfortcat
Well Known Member
Used to fly a Traveler/Tiger and it was a nice setup. It seemed to be a little less than an RV-10 on specs but still with four seats. It didn't have near the RV performance -- an RV'ish four seater would likely fill the bill. On the other hand, I suppose Van's can't provide EVERY variation that we wish we had.
Tiger was not a true 4 adult airplane, but did have a utility configuration. Light on the controls, easy entry/exit, sliding canopy and higher performance than the 172. It is clearly a serious step down from an RV-10 in many respects but would fill the "better than a 172 niche" in Vans product line without the costs and work of a RV-10. If the expaned D/L medical proposal goes through, hopefully flown under that.
pierre smith
Well Known Member
It's not easy
As one who has had both, I can assure you that I wouldn't go back to my -6A, two-seater, now that I've had the -10 for over two years!
That said, however, I fly the -10 solo quite often because my wife, as a restaurant owner, works weekends when I'm free. She was the one who suggested the -10, after flying in the -6A for around 5 years and when she is available, we take another couple or her two sons along.
I can assure you that 4 200 pounders, on a hot day, is no problem for the -10...it is an honest-to-goodness 4 seater.
I fly solo way more than with others, so I'm keeping my eyes open for a -4...-3...basket case rebuildable...neglected Rocket?
Best,
As one who has had both, I can assure you that I wouldn't go back to my -6A, two-seater, now that I've had the -10 for over two years!
That said, however, I fly the -10 solo quite often because my wife, as a restaurant owner, works weekends when I'm free. She was the one who suggested the -10, after flying in the -6A for around 5 years and when she is available, we take another couple or her two sons along.
I can assure you that 4 200 pounders, on a hot day, is no problem for the -10...it is an honest-to-goodness 4 seater.
I fly solo way more than with others, so I'm keeping my eyes open for a -4...-3...basket case rebuildable...neglected Rocket?
Best,
blahphish
Well Known Member
All depends on your mission as everyone says. Maybe your mission will change over the years... If you can do a -10 now and dont HAVE to do acro then go for the -10.
Here is some inspiration to consider your mission, in my opinion:
http://myrv10.com/N104CD/Trips/Bahamas_2010/RV20100405094743.html
http://myrv10.com/N104CD/Trips/Bahamas_2010/index.html
Here is some inspiration to consider your mission, in my opinion:
http://myrv10.com/N104CD/Trips/Bahamas_2010/RV20100405094743.html
http://myrv10.com/N104CD/Trips/Bahamas_2010/index.html
I agree, Brian, inspirational indeed!
Built a 9A, now building a 10
I built a 9A. My wife (also a pilot) and I love it, but it is not great for long distance due to the cramped cockpit. Works great for about 2.5 hours.
We are looking forward to the extra space/load capacity for longer cross country trips. We aren't interested in acro.
The 9A will be for sale towards the end of next summer!
I built a 9A. My wife (also a pilot) and I love it, but it is not great for long distance due to the cramped cockpit. Works great for about 2.5 hours.
We are looking forward to the extra space/load capacity for longer cross country trips. We aren't interested in acro.
The 9A will be for sale towards the end of next summer!
Hmmmm, I was looking at the 9A. I thought one of the reasons for the 9 models was to be more efficient for long x/c. Didn't think about the cramped cockpit maybe making that less than ideal.
Efficient.
It is efficient. Also a very nice IFR platform, stable and easy to handle and land.
I am 6' tall and weigh 190, my wife is 5' 8" and very slender. We get along well on long trips, but will enjoy a little more elbow room, and more comfortable seats that can recline.
There will be more room between us for our little dog that is comfortable only when he is right there next to both of us.
Glad I built the 9A. I don't think I could have talked my wife into a 10 at that point in our lives, but we sure are looking forward to completing the 10!
It is efficient. Also a very nice IFR platform, stable and easy to handle and land.
I am 6' tall and weigh 190, my wife is 5' 8" and very slender. We get along well on long trips, but will enjoy a little more elbow room, and more comfortable seats that can recline.
There will be more room between us for our little dog that is comfortable only when he is right there next to both of us.
Glad I built the 9A. I don't think I could have talked my wife into a 10 at that point in our lives, but we sure are looking forward to completing the 10!
Lan Vinh Do
Well Known Member
2 or 4
5 years ago, i had 100 pic hr. I was tinking betwen the rv-7 or rv-10. Some one told me that i would be 99% of the time alone in the plane. I was also said that i will never do long cross country in a homebuilt. And i will nefer fly ifr in a single engine homebuilt. I built the rv-7A night VFR. I did a lot of cross country because my family live at 2hre of flying distance and 10hre of car. I've put 550 hre on this airplane. at 200hre, i've put it IFR. My wife was loving it.
Now with the first kid, i was flying alone in the morning because my wife didn't want to let the kid alone with 2 of us flying.
So i bought a rv-10 ( didn't had the time to built this one with work and kid). I've put the 10 IFR and now fly with the family. ( car seat fit in the back of the 10) and we are expecting a second kid in 5 week.
Conclusion. I fly IFR, I do long Cross country and Fly with my family. I love the 10. Better machine for long cross country, very confortable for long flight ( 6 or 9 hre a day is fine. No back pain or pain in the leg). It's perfect for my need. BUT , i miss the handling if the rv-7, the control was very light, a real fighter, cheap oni fuel but i would fly alone. Two perfect plane. I depend what you need
Lan Vinh Do
rv-10 C-GMCE
5 years ago, i had 100 pic hr. I was tinking betwen the rv-7 or rv-10. Some one told me that i would be 99% of the time alone in the plane. I was also said that i will never do long cross country in a homebuilt. And i will nefer fly ifr in a single engine homebuilt. I built the rv-7A night VFR. I did a lot of cross country because my family live at 2hre of flying distance and 10hre of car. I've put 550 hre on this airplane. at 200hre, i've put it IFR. My wife was loving it.
Now with the first kid, i was flying alone in the morning because my wife didn't want to let the kid alone with 2 of us flying.
So i bought a rv-10 ( didn't had the time to built this one with work and kid). I've put the 10 IFR and now fly with the family. ( car seat fit in the back of the 10) and we are expecting a second kid in 5 week.
Conclusion. I fly IFR, I do long Cross country and Fly with my family. I love the 10. Better machine for long cross country, very confortable for long flight ( 6 or 9 hre a day is fine. No back pain or pain in the leg). It's perfect for my need. BUT , i miss the handling if the rv-7, the control was very light, a real fighter, cheap oni fuel but i would fly alone. Two perfect plane. I depend what you need
Lan Vinh Do
rv-10 C-GMCE
flion
Well Known Member
+1. except I am not selling the 6A until I have something (probably a 12 to hedge the medical issues as I get older) to replace it for the short breakfast flights.
joe gremlin
Well Known Member
Meh, I've always been of the school of thought that says you show me an airplane which can fill the seats and the tanks all the time, and I'll show you an airplane that doesn't have enough seats or enough tanks.
ppilotmike
Well Known Member
My choice..
Having flown in a 7A all the way from Denver to Oshkosh and back, my feeling is that it's a great airplane for CC, as long as you only need room for two. Then I test drove a 10. It's not as responsive as a 7, but it most definitely makes up for it with comfort, room and load. I am quite sure that it makes for a better CC plane than the 7, even with only 2 people, b/c you can A) take a lot more stuff, B) travel with more comfort, and C) travel with more people. You can still cruise along at a decent clip and land most anywhere you want to land. The only drawback, as I see it, is the "fun" factor of the 7 and similar smaller Vans aircraft. You just CAN'T beat the feel of these little hotrods for fun, solo or dual flying.
My thoughts are:
1) build the 10 for you and your family
2) you can always team up with another RV owner to share your plane for time in a two seater. As you can see on this thread, there are lots of people who want to use the 10 occasionally. With a 10 to lend, you can have your pick of the litter.
3) when the kids are grown or you decide you want the "fun" flying, build another plane, or sell the 10 (to a growing secondary market), recoup your investment and build a single seat or two seat RV. Heck, you could probably build 2 planes. The idea is, your "plane money" is already invested in planes, so you can expand your choices later.
Have fun! It's a tough decision, so choose wisely... But choose already! Get building!!!
Having flown in a 7A all the way from Denver to Oshkosh and back, my feeling is that it's a great airplane for CC, as long as you only need room for two. Then I test drove a 10. It's not as responsive as a 7, but it most definitely makes up for it with comfort, room and load. I am quite sure that it makes for a better CC plane than the 7, even with only 2 people, b/c you can A) take a lot more stuff, B) travel with more comfort, and C) travel with more people. You can still cruise along at a decent clip and land most anywhere you want to land. The only drawback, as I see it, is the "fun" factor of the 7 and similar smaller Vans aircraft. You just CAN'T beat the feel of these little hotrods for fun, solo or dual flying.
My thoughts are:
1) build the 10 for you and your family
2) you can always team up with another RV owner to share your plane for time in a two seater. As you can see on this thread, there are lots of people who want to use the 10 occasionally. With a 10 to lend, you can have your pick of the litter.
3) when the kids are grown or you decide you want the "fun" flying, build another plane, or sell the 10 (to a growing secondary market), recoup your investment and build a single seat or two seat RV. Heck, you could probably build 2 planes. The idea is, your "plane money" is already invested in planes, so you can expand your choices later.
Have fun! It's a tough decision, so choose wisely... But choose already! Get building!!!
The Vans cost estimator says you could do a 10 for $80K to $100K. Is this possible? If it is, why have I seen them for sale for close to, or over $200K? Can you really spend that much building one? It seems to me that the only real cost difference would be the engine and the basic kit cost differences, which are a total of only $20K to $40K more than a 2-seater.
Tim
Tim
One Seat
There's only one seat that matters; yours. No more compromises, do it right. Built or buy an RV-3.
I've owned several 2+2 seat a/c over the years, but always lusted for an RV-3. Finally bought the RV-3 and am having the most fun flying ever, every time I go up. Mostly local but it'll cross country very well too. I rent a Warrior about twice a year when someone wants a ride.
There's only one seat that matters; yours. No more compromises, do it right. Built or buy an RV-3.
I've owned several 2+2 seat a/c over the years, but always lusted for an RV-3. Finally bought the RV-3 and am having the most fun flying ever, every time I go up. Mostly local but it'll cross country very well too. I rent a Warrior about twice a year when someone wants a ride.
Auburntsts
Well Known Member
Yes, I think it could be done. However, it would be a pretty basic, bare bones machine that simply is not what most RV-10 drivers want. Van's cost calculator is built around the VFR, build it simple, build it light mantra and some of the projections are suspect IMO. For example, pro paint is listed as $6000. My research shows that a relatively basic paint job for a 10 actually runs more like $10K. Another example is adding typical IFR avionics and AutoPilot and you can easily add $20K-$30K to what the calculator gives you (and that's not going top of the line either). Plus there's endless mods that aren't in the calculator but a lot of RV-10 builders go for -- full interiors, overhead consoles, entertainment systems, built-in oxygen, ect. This stuff plus other widgets simply just add up to balloon the end cost.
twsurveyor
Well Known Member
If ......... ifs, ands and buts were sugar, candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas!
Long and the short of it is that (like many have said) the RV-10 cost 50% more to build and 50% more to operate! My 6A costs me in the neighborhood of $80/hr to own and operate which translates to $120/hr for an RV-10.
When I decided to build, I looked back through my logbooks and found that only 5% of my logged time was with more than 2 people aboard. So............ the choice for me was a no brainer. I'd hate to be paying $40/hr extra to carry around 2 vacant seats 95% of the time, not to mention I couldn't afford it anyhow.
I'd say this, if you got the "jack" and the extra expense ain't a problem, then go for it!
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wera710
Well Known Member
Here is another perspective on the topic based on some polling we did at local airports a few years back. Its a hot topic for new pilots looking to buy an aircraft, as many "think" they need a four seater before they do the math. Wives/Family are often touted as the justification.
You have to be VERY honest with yourself before committing to the financial demands of a four seater - especially if you intend to BUILD.
We polled pilots one year and 100% of the pilots stated they flew ALONE approx. 60% of the time, and with a SINLGE passenger 30% of the time. The remaining 10% of flight time had a total of 3 souls on board. Of those three on board group, most used the extra space for baggage/fuel as few could actually support a fourth person. Those flying with four on board regularly, and that is the key, REGULARLY, were too low to count as a %.
Good hopes and intensions aside, the reality is, guys with four seaters more often then not only fill the second seat on most flights. So you really have to make sure you have a true NEED for a four seater before investing the amount required. This goes DOULBE if you are considering building one. Its a lot of money unless you actually FLY loaded a lot -- Not just twice a year.
Remember, for those occasions when you actually NEED four seats, either for baggage or people or pets, you can still RENT, or BORROW, or PARTNER in one for a LOT less than owning or building. Especially an RV-10. I've known a few to go over well $210K without trying. Its a lot of $$ if you only fill it twice a year.
Like the others said, mission, mission, mission.
If you are a sport pilot for instance (acro, burger runs, ACM, formation, buzzing the neighbors cattle), you will not be all that thrilled with the limitations of the four seaters. So weigh zooming and booming against driving a bus from point A to point B. RVs are amazing SPORT planes. Making them into mini-airliners has its downside. Weight.
So if you have a wife and no kids, tell her to buck-up and stop trying to pack 200 pounds of **** for a two day weekend.
My wife loves the RV-8 because she has more shoulder room than in a side-by-side. She also prefers the all around view. My buddy and his girl love his RV-7 because he can share the work load with her and give her a kiss in flight. The RV-6, 7, 8 and 9 can handle enough baggage for a long weekend or extended trip if you have access to a washer/dryer at the hotel. So its not like you need a four seater for the occasional excursion if you are thinking in terms of BAGGAGE.
Family you say? When my son wants to fly, we rent or borrow a four place spam can. Getting the wife, kid and Dog together to fly regularly NEVER happens as much as one hopes or wants. One other thought, when the kid grows up, you are again back to generally only needing two seats and even before he moves out, a lot of flights will not include the kids because you and the wife are getting away from them for a much needed break (thank god for grandparents!).
Anyway, good luck which ever way you go. But don't be afraid the Rent a four holer when you need it and be a guilt free wannabee fighter pilot the other 60% of the time.
You have to be VERY honest with yourself before committing to the financial demands of a four seater - especially if you intend to BUILD.
We polled pilots one year and 100% of the pilots stated they flew ALONE approx. 60% of the time, and with a SINLGE passenger 30% of the time. The remaining 10% of flight time had a total of 3 souls on board. Of those three on board group, most used the extra space for baggage/fuel as few could actually support a fourth person. Those flying with four on board regularly, and that is the key, REGULARLY, were too low to count as a %.
Good hopes and intensions aside, the reality is, guys with four seaters more often then not only fill the second seat on most flights. So you really have to make sure you have a true NEED for a four seater before investing the amount required. This goes DOULBE if you are considering building one. Its a lot of money unless you actually FLY loaded a lot -- Not just twice a year.
Remember, for those occasions when you actually NEED four seats, either for baggage or people or pets, you can still RENT, or BORROW, or PARTNER in one for a LOT less than owning or building. Especially an RV-10. I've known a few to go over well $210K without trying. Its a lot of $$ if you only fill it twice a year.
Like the others said, mission, mission, mission.
If you are a sport pilot for instance (acro, burger runs, ACM, formation, buzzing the neighbors cattle), you will not be all that thrilled with the limitations of the four seaters. So weigh zooming and booming against driving a bus from point A to point B. RVs are amazing SPORT planes. Making them into mini-airliners has its downside. Weight.
So if you have a wife and no kids, tell her to buck-up and stop trying to pack 200 pounds of **** for a two day weekend.
My wife loves the RV-8 because she has more shoulder room than in a side-by-side. She also prefers the all around view. My buddy and his girl love his RV-7 because he can share the work load with her and give her a kiss in flight. The RV-6, 7, 8 and 9 can handle enough baggage for a long weekend or extended trip if you have access to a washer/dryer at the hotel. So its not like you need a four seater for the occasional excursion if you are thinking in terms of BAGGAGE.
Family you say? When my son wants to fly, we rent or borrow a four place spam can. Getting the wife, kid and Dog together to fly regularly NEVER happens as much as one hopes or wants. One other thought, when the kid grows up, you are again back to generally only needing two seats and even before he moves out, a lot of flights will not include the kids because you and the wife are getting away from them for a much needed break (thank god for grandparents!).
Anyway, good luck which ever way you go. But don't be afraid the Rent a four holer when you need it and be a guilt free wannabee fighter pilot the other 60% of the time.
Kyle Boatright
Well Known Member
The issue I've been struggling with is whether my family (myself, my wife, and our 1 year old) can or will become a "flying family" which would use an RV-10 or Bonanza or whatever to go places and do things on a routine basis. I'd hate to invest that much time and money and discover that we only use the extra seats 2 or 3 times a year.
That is a tough one to know. I was unsure if my wife would enjoy it but really wanted the opportunity to take the family along on big trips. My 9 did not work well for that. The first trip was over the rocks to Vancouver Island which went well, but on the return leg a few days later not so much. The O2 system arrive that day after we left and we could not wait for it. My wife got a major migraine on the flight back, it was super rough in the rocks and no place to land ASAP. Going slower meant less bumps and more time and she said just get there. Needless to say I really thought my hard work was a waist and we would not be able to use it for travel. Next trip we had the O2 and all has been well ever since. The family really likes the freedom.
Lots of good advice here. If I am honest with myself, I will be flying alone most of the time, and maybe my wife sometimes, but rarely would we be taking two others along. Four seats might be nice to have, but I doubt I could justify the cost and operating expense. If I ever need to take four, it would be better and less expensive to just rent one for that occassion. So, thanks to everyone for their input -- I think you've allowed me to make an easy decision. Now all I have to do is decide whether I need an RV-7A sports car or RV-9A sedan.
Flyfalcons
Well Known Member
You only need to have three people (not four) aboard to go beyond the scope of a 2-seat aircraft.
Canadian_JOY
Well Known Member
Oh boy, here I go... donning kevlar and nomex... I took a long hard look at this question a couple of years ago and came to a different conclusion.
Our current aircraft is a Davis DA2A, 2 seater, and with my wife on board we have a minimal baggage capacity of 30lbs. Our range is about 200 miles, mostly based on personal comfort considerations as I could stretch it another 100 miles and still meet my conservative personal fuel reserve limits.
After reviewing our current aircraft's capability and putting together a clear mission capabilities requirements list I started to review the aircraft which were able to meet the mission. I could bias the mission requirements and shoe-horn us into a -6A, but after some soul searching I realized my wife will never pack light, and will never pack in small volume. That made the 2-seat RV's less appealing, even though my wife LOVES my hangar-mates -8A. Unfortunately her purse will hardly fit in the baggage compartment!
My search continued and I came to the conclusion that a -10 would be out of our budget range, both for acquisition and operational costs. Then I started to look at the Glasairs and discovered the GlaStar. Hmmm, it seemed to meet the majority of our requirements and with an O-360 it would be a solid performer.
Then I discovered the Sportsman 2+2. Yup, it met all of our mission requirements. Oh, all except for the cost and build timeline - Two Weeks to Taxi would meet the timeline, but would blow the budget parameters out of the water. Fortunately we lucked into a partially-completed Sportsman and have started down that path. It's an airplane that will meet our mission requirements quite handily, and offers a few bonus capabilities including easy conversion from nose- to tail-dragger and pretty decent STOL-like performance. It's not as fast as an RV, and it's no good for acro, but it will haul a ton of stuff across long distances in relative comfort, and get in and out of small airfields, while not costing a fortune to run. Its design compromises closely match the compromises between "want" and "need" in our mission profile.
It is our intention to build it as a well-equipped VFR 2-seater but if our mission needs should change then we will retain the capacity to install the additional 2 seats and upgrade the glass panels to add IFR capability.
What I have found very interesting is that a search of the archives here reveals an opinion poll that was run some time ago. Essentially the question asked was "if you couldn't build an RV, what would you build?" Many of the poll respondents indicated the Sportsman appealed to them as "the next best thing". Having gone through this same line of questioning myself, the Sportsman came out on top.
What I found most rewarding is that much of the discussion I've read on this forum encourages potential RV builders and buyers to formulate a realistic mission profile and then evaluate candidate aircraft through the filter of that mission profile. That, I believe, is some of the best advice any potential aircraft owner could ever receive. The participants in this forum deserve credit for the open-mindedness that encourages this methodical approach to selecting an aircraft.
Our current aircraft is a Davis DA2A, 2 seater, and with my wife on board we have a minimal baggage capacity of 30lbs. Our range is about 200 miles, mostly based on personal comfort considerations as I could stretch it another 100 miles and still meet my conservative personal fuel reserve limits.
After reviewing our current aircraft's capability and putting together a clear mission capabilities requirements list I started to review the aircraft which were able to meet the mission. I could bias the mission requirements and shoe-horn us into a -6A, but after some soul searching I realized my wife will never pack light, and will never pack in small volume. That made the 2-seat RV's less appealing, even though my wife LOVES my hangar-mates -8A. Unfortunately her purse will hardly fit in the baggage compartment!
My search continued and I came to the conclusion that a -10 would be out of our budget range, both for acquisition and operational costs. Then I started to look at the Glasairs and discovered the GlaStar. Hmmm, it seemed to meet the majority of our requirements and with an O-360 it would be a solid performer.
Then I discovered the Sportsman 2+2. Yup, it met all of our mission requirements. Oh, all except for the cost and build timeline - Two Weeks to Taxi would meet the timeline, but would blow the budget parameters out of the water. Fortunately we lucked into a partially-completed Sportsman and have started down that path. It's an airplane that will meet our mission requirements quite handily, and offers a few bonus capabilities including easy conversion from nose- to tail-dragger and pretty decent STOL-like performance. It's not as fast as an RV, and it's no good for acro, but it will haul a ton of stuff across long distances in relative comfort, and get in and out of small airfields, while not costing a fortune to run. Its design compromises closely match the compromises between "want" and "need" in our mission profile.
It is our intention to build it as a well-equipped VFR 2-seater but if our mission needs should change then we will retain the capacity to install the additional 2 seats and upgrade the glass panels to add IFR capability.
What I have found very interesting is that a search of the archives here reveals an opinion poll that was run some time ago. Essentially the question asked was "if you couldn't build an RV, what would you build?" Many of the poll respondents indicated the Sportsman appealed to them as "the next best thing". Having gone through this same line of questioning myself, the Sportsman came out on top.
What I found most rewarding is that much of the discussion I've read on this forum encourages potential RV builders and buyers to formulate a realistic mission profile and then evaluate candidate aircraft through the filter of that mission profile. That, I believe, is some of the best advice any potential aircraft owner could ever receive. The participants in this forum deserve credit for the open-mindedness that encourages this methodical approach to selecting an aircraft.
twsurveyor
Well Known Member
RV-6A "Mission Capibilities"
"Not so fast my friend"!
With all due respect Canadian JOY, (based on my 635 hours logged in my RV-6A) I think you may be selling the 2 seat side by side RV's a little short. I go 240 lbs and my wife goes 140 lbs. We fit comfortably in the 6A, can carry full fuel and 60-80 lbs of baggage and still be under gross at takeoff! We cruise @ 185 MPH on 8.5 GPH with a 700 mile range!
Now, your "mission requirments" may be a lot different than mine, but as for me, the "shoe-horn" RV-6A exceeds any "mission requirments" I would ever have.
"Not so fast my friend"!
With all due respect Canadian JOY, (based on my 635 hours logged in my RV-6A) I think you may be selling the 2 seat side by side RV's a little short. I go 240 lbs and my wife goes 140 lbs. We fit comfortably in the 6A, can carry full fuel and 60-80 lbs of baggage and still be under gross at takeoff! We cruise @ 185 MPH on 8.5 GPH with a 700 mile range!
Now, your "mission requirments" may be a lot different than mine, but as for me, the "shoe-horn" RV-6A exceeds any "mission requirments" I would ever have.
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Canadian_JOY
Well Known Member
Tommy - your points are indeed valid, and I looked long and hard at not just the numbers but also the airplanes (being fortunate to have a few local RV's which can be inspected with the Mark I eyeball!). I came close on two occasions to buying different -6A's, so the validity of your statements has been born out in my own experiences.
Unfortunately the one critical area where the side-by-side RV's fall short is in cargo VOLUME. My wife of 22 years has never learned to pack either light or tight, and I'm not about to compromise marital peace by attempting to force her to change. I've tried in the past to "condense" her packing and those attempts caused a rapid decline in marital bliss. Lesson learned.
The choice of the Sportsman is a tip of the hat to the wonderful gal who makes my life so enjoyable. Sure, it's not as fast as an RV, but flying an RV solo isn't as fun perhaps as flying a Sportsman with my life-long partner by my side. As I mentioned in my original post, the Sportsman represents the trade-off point between "wants" and "needs" in our mission profile. I "want" to travel with my wife, and she "needs" baggage space! ;-)
Unfortunately the one critical area where the side-by-side RV's fall short is in cargo VOLUME. My wife of 22 years has never learned to pack either light or tight, and I'm not about to compromise marital peace by attempting to force her to change. I've tried in the past to "condense" her packing and those attempts caused a rapid decline in marital bliss. Lesson learned.
The choice of the Sportsman is a tip of the hat to the wonderful gal who makes my life so enjoyable. Sure, it's not as fast as an RV, but flying an RV solo isn't as fun perhaps as flying a Sportsman with my life-long partner by my side. As I mentioned in my original post, the Sportsman represents the trade-off point between "wants" and "needs" in our mission profile. I "want" to travel with my wife, and she "needs" baggage space! ;-)
DavisKansas
I'm New Here
Please forgive me if this is a completely ridiculous question (I'm new to RVs and experimentals) but has anyone tried or contemplated adding small children's seats in back of say a RV9?
Do what I did and buy a Comanche 250 dirt cheap with 3 other pilots and spread the cost among 4 people and keep build or buy a 7 8 9 14 for the fun stuff. Even with 4 owners the plane is almost always available when I need it plus we do some co-owner trips together. Spreading the fixed costs 4 ways is very affordable and the Comanche is a true 160 MPH airplane even with full 90 gal fuel and 4 ea 200 plus pound guys.
John Morgan
John Morgan
2 or 4 seats?
Mission, mission, mission!
I have over 2000 hours of RV time since 1996, most the time I was solo. Local trips, fly-ins, Vans Home Comings, Oshkosh..
But my mission changed in 2004!
Back country destinations!! (thanks to Rob Ray and Doug Reeves),,, have taken my interest. I built a 180 hp Super cub for those Idaho back country camp outs. First flight was April 2004. But in 2006, I met Carol and the Cub started getting a little small. She loves to fly, campout, and travel.
I wanted a RV10 but at 63 years old, in 2009, did not want to spend the years to build, and, a Cessna 180J came aviable in my area. In the last 3 years we have put 310 hours on it and flown it to Idaho 3 times, New York, and many other 'out back' destinations. I still have the Super Cub 'Shooter', and the RV8 'Borrowed Horse'. I am fortunate to be able to hanger these airplanes, wanted to sell the Cub to pay for the 180,, but no buyer?
So, please, define your destination, mission, and passenger load. I still do not fly with 3 or 4 soles. The 180J never has a back seat! If I had a RV10 it would not have a back seat either.. Back Country camping is better with a large airplane. Tail wheels are more fun too!
Get what you will use, get two if you can, because one will not do it all.
Mission, mission, mission!
I have over 2000 hours of RV time since 1996, most the time I was solo. Local trips, fly-ins, Vans Home Comings, Oshkosh..
But my mission changed in 2004!
Back country destinations!! (thanks to Rob Ray and Doug Reeves),,, have taken my interest. I built a 180 hp Super cub for those Idaho back country camp outs. First flight was April 2004. But in 2006, I met Carol and the Cub started getting a little small. She loves to fly, campout, and travel.
I wanted a RV10 but at 63 years old, in 2009, did not want to spend the years to build, and, a Cessna 180J came aviable in my area. In the last 3 years we have put 310 hours on it and flown it to Idaho 3 times, New York, and many other 'out back' destinations. I still have the Super Cub 'Shooter', and the RV8 'Borrowed Horse'. I am fortunate to be able to hanger these airplanes, wanted to sell the Cub to pay for the 180,, but no buyer?
So, please, define your destination, mission, and passenger load. I still do not fly with 3 or 4 soles. The 180J never has a back seat! If I had a RV10 it would not have a back seat either.. Back Country camping is better with a large airplane. Tail wheels are more fun too!
Get what you will use, get two if you can, because one will not do it all.
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"get two if you can"
I couln't agree more! Iuse the RV-8 for most of my solo and "fun" flying and my 1958 J35 Bonanza for family (just the two of us) cross country flying. My wife loves the Bo and won't let me sell it and I won't sell the RV. We put about 120 hrs/yr on each plane. My wife even said the other day "it's nice to have a spare airplane!" You have to love a woman like that!
I couln't agree more! Iuse the RV-8 for most of my solo and "fun" flying and my 1958 J35 Bonanza for family (just the two of us) cross country flying. My wife loves the Bo and won't let me sell it and I won't sell the RV. We put about 120 hrs/yr on each plane. My wife even said the other day "it's nice to have a spare airplane!" You have to love a woman like that!
Cooperd0g
Member
One thing to consider about packing is to maybe ship some stuff to your designation ahead of time. Depending on what type of trips you do and how long you go it may be worth shipping a box or two. If cargo, and not people, is the concern about 2 or 4 seats I'm willing to bet the cost of shipping items there and back is much cheaper than the operating cost difference between a 2 seat RV and the 10. Obviously this doesn't work well for the backcountry trips though.
BTW I really like that Sportsman 2+2 also.
BTW I really like that Sportsman 2+2 also.
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DaleB
Well Known Member
I really wanted the -10... but it's simply not do-able within my budget. So I'm building a -7a, and at least until it's finished I'm in a flying club that has a 172, a 182 and an Arrow. The local FBO rents planes too, with up to six seats.
All our kids are grown and not a factor when we travel. We don't have friends or family we're close enough with that we travel with them. To be honest -- if I built the 10, it would be for baggage space, elbow room and for the occasional airplane ride for the grandkids. I can rent for airplane rides, or take them up one at a time.
My lovely bride is not completely sold on the whole "You're going to build WHAT??" idea. I figure once the 7a is finished we'll have a couple of years to figure out if I need to start looking for a 10. If so, it will have to be my wife's idea that we need a bigger plane -- and if it's her idea, it will be a lot easier to get done.
All our kids are grown and not a factor when we travel. We don't have friends or family we're close enough with that we travel with them. To be honest -- if I built the 10, it would be for baggage space, elbow room and for the occasional airplane ride for the grandkids. I can rent for airplane rides, or take them up one at a time.
My lovely bride is not completely sold on the whole "You're going to build WHAT??" idea. I figure once the 7a is finished we'll have a couple of years to figure out if I need to start looking for a 10. If so, it will have to be my wife's idea that we need a bigger plane -- and if it's her idea, it will be a lot easier to get done.
flyenforfun
Well Known Member
I don't wish I built a 4 seater, but I do wish I had the money to build one if I wanted to.
