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A Model Flipover

mkjprice

mkjprice

Active Member
This may have been addressed before, but I was not able to find it in a brief search. Some have noted that the A model aircraft may flip over problem. If an A model aircraft were to be used primarily on paved strips, with little to none (likely none) off airport work, does this problem go away?

I was just checking on this, as I was reasind through Matt Drahll's website and read about his mishap. Although his plane is not an A model, it made me think about this.

I am just curious as, my wife plans to order (with my help of course) my preview plans as a christmas present. Additionally, I plan on building and 8 and I like the idea of the wider leg room arrangement in the 8A. I plan on useing the new gear saver device that I found on this site, as a good piece of mind. Just checking with all of you more experienced and knowlegeble gents on here.

Thanks in advance!
 
"A" model issues are not just limited to grass. Grass really is not the real cause of problems at all.

There are multiple threads discussing the A model issues. Here is one I just posted just the other day concerning my wheel pant scraping I discovered this past weekend. Definitely was due to scraping asphalt and not grass. That was an excerpt from a post from the Anti Splat Nose Job a review thread.

Search the forum and you will find much discussion on this topic. There was a nose gear failure a year or so ago that was well documented on this forum when an "A" model gear failed while taxiing on a paved runway. Grass is not the problem. The flexing of the gear leg that allows the yoke to come into contact with the ground is the problem.
 
I am get flamed for saying this, but this question is like asking ?could a RV crash? which the answer is of course if you don?t play by the rules.

The A models obviously are less forgiving on an unimproved runway such as grass or runways that may have potholes in them.
This is by any means not any different than a tail dragger that is less forgiving in a crosswind landing or taxing with limited view.

But in my view, specially with all the improvements whether from VANs or other aftermarket which has decreased the odds for flip over. There are large number of Nose draggers that have been operation without any issues, it only requires a bit more caution specially on unimproved runways.

My 0.02 cents I guess.
 
I have not seen A models flipping over on paved runways. I have seen bent gear legs on A models on paved runways. The new Anti Splat device would certainly seem to remedy that problem, as all legs bend backwards and not upwards. The reasons why, can be seen on the 2nd Anti Splat video. I'd say that the two causes of gear legs bending on paved runways, are hitting the nose wheel first, or hitting a raised edge. I suppose a 3rd method is litterly splatting it onto the runway, by falling too high out of a flare. I just don't know if any RV's have ruined their gear this way.

If you bounce in an A model on landing, then immediately power out of it. Even if it's just a few feet high. And that's the first bounce. Don't wait for a second or third. I'm saying this through personal experience. And BTW, mine didn't flip. The momentum was slow, and no feeling of going over. I wish I had the anti-splat device. The fork was the older lower model...too.

L.Adamson
 
Bavafa said:
There are large number of Nose draggers that have been operation without any issues, it only requires a bit more caution specially on unimproved runways.
Click to expand...

You're correct. I've been around RV nosedraggers for 17 years. Most have not flipped, or bent the gear...........as there are thousands of them flying.

L.Adamson
 
I know of two that flipped on pavement, one twice. Personally know the owners of both.
 
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Maybe i'm the exception?

My rv6a is a lightweight; O320 powered with a wood prop. It's very light on the nose and quite easy to hold the front wheel off the ground until very slow (15mph?). I believe that my airplane is less susceptible than an rv6a with a very heavy nose (forward CG) configuration.

I guess my point is that not all RV A model's are created equal.

my $0.02
 
jbagley said:
Maybe i'm the exception?

My rv6a is a lightweight; O320 powered with a wood prop. It's very light on the nose and quite easy to hold the front wheel off the ground until very slow (15mph?). I believe that my airplane is less susceptible than an rv6a with a very heavy nose (forward CG) configuration.

I guess my point is that not all RV A model's are created equal.

my $0.02
Click to expand...

Possibly. But even with an 0360 & constant speed prop, you can move fixed items behind the CG & main wheels; as well as pilot,passenger and cargo to lighten the load that the nose gear sees. Even though mine has an 0360 & C/S prop, two people standing on the steps at the same time, would slam the tail to the ground.

L.Adamson
 
The OP stated he was interested in an 8A and I may have missed it but I don't know of an 8A that has flipped due to the nose gear folding under.

Does anybody have an account of an 8A flipping?

Paul Danclovic
Jamestown NC
RV-8A N181SB
 
One -8A flipped here about two years ago which was as a result of real bad landing. I know the guy in the back seat and talking with him, they bounced three times on the nose wheel before they went nose over.

There was also a -9A shortly later that had similar bad landing, only she lucked out and had only bent gear leg and did not go over. She did have prop strike though.
 
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rocketbob said:
There are a lot of people that know what they're doing, and there are some that don't.
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We have a guy on the field that damaged his 172 with a hard landing on the nose. Must have hit hard as he bent the firewall. He bought an RV-9A. Damaged the nose gear on it but did not flip (on pavement). My guess it was a combination of bad landing and poor nose gear servicing as he did not have a clue about breakout force, tire pressure, or clamp-up on the bearings. He sold the RV-9A and bought a Cirrus. So far has not damaged the nose gear on it.
 
plehrke said:
He sold the RV-9A and bought a Cirrus. So far has not damaged the nose gear on it.
Click to expand...
The Cirrus nose gear design is prone to issues if mis treated. He will mess it up too if he has not learned the basics of landing. The Cirrus has a higher than average number of landing incidents. Slowing down is the key....
 
Awesome!

Thanks for all of the input. So let me see if what I gather is correct?

1.) If you land any A model without proper technique, and try to force the plane to the ground, you are more prone to damage the nose gear.

2.) Don't bounce the dang thing

3.) Have a proper setup to land, and you should be fine

4.) Going to in unimproved strips, or rough runways, you should use extra care and treat is as a soft field landing.

5.) Don't buy the Cirrus from the guy that wrecked a 172 and a 9A.

The airport that I will be based out of is U14 which is located here in Nephi, UT. About 5 years ago we had a federally funded expansion, and they have recoated the runway and ramp at least once since that time. The runway is 6300' by 100'. There is plenty of room for an RV.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/U14

I think you have helped me decide on the A model instead of the Taildragger. I currently do not have a tailwheel endorsement, and I really have no interest in getting one at this time. Maybe down the road, it will interest me more. I love this site, it is so inspiring, and motivational, and full of great, respectable, and knowlegable people.

Cheers!
 
Mike, I have about 1600 hours in a 6A. No concerns.

I do not land on grass strips.

I have seen the results of one 6A flipover. Reportedly bungled approach with hard landing on nosewheel first.

The plane did not flip under it went off the runway and contacted softer dirt. Plenty of scrapping on the runway before that.
 
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plehrke said:
He sold the RV-9A and bought a Cirrus. So far has not damaged the nose gear on it.
Click to expand...

This is all about training, practice, and technique. Any nosewheel can be damaged, just like any taildragger can be ground looped. Bluntly, I'm getting tired of people trying to fix incompetence with technology.

110609planecrash540.jpg


John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Bluntly, I'm getting tired of people trying to fix incompetence with technology.
Click to expand...

+1. Well said.
Click to expand...

I'm not thinking +1. I'm not sure of exactly what the thought line is. Is it to forget about anti-splat bars for nosewheels, or dismissing technology such as GPS in favor of old school?

L.Adamson
 
L.Adamson said:
I'm not thinking +1. I'm not sure of exactly what the thought line is. Is it to forget about anti-splat bars for nosewheels, or dismissing technology such as GPS in favor of old school?

L.Adamson
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I didn't say anything about dismissing technology, my point is that many people are relying on technology to "save them" from problems that could be corrected by training and currency.

The anti-splat modification is a case in point. If it does work as promised, it could add to the margin of safety of a competent pilot. My issue is the person that installs the mod and feels that the nosewheel is now invincible. And no, that isn't an exaggeration, I have heard that logic expressed.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
John Clark said:
Bluntly, I'm getting tired of people trying to fix incompetence with technology.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm a low time pilot, who is human. Yes, I have done some dumb things, learned from them, and moved on. I'm also building an RV-9A and I'm willing to trade off a little performance (speed, weight, climb) for some forgiveness.

I owned a Skyhawk, and was landing in a pretty heavy cross-wind (I learned to fly at VNY so I'm pretty used to cross-wind) and all of a sudden, NO WIND! My plane was about 10 ft above the runway, and it just fell. YIKES! FULL POWER and go around! Even with my lighting fast reflexes, I bounced once. But guess what? The Skyhawk forgave me. No wrinkled firewall, no bent landing gear and no prop strike.

I guess I'm willing to pay a little extra, and give up a little performance to get that "Get out of Jail Free" card.

BTW: A TR-2 had a similar incident at Marysville, and was not forgiven. Prop strike and bent landing gear. Maybe they fell farther than me tho.

Dkb
 
John Clark said:
Bluntly, I'm getting tired of people trying to fix incompetence
Click to expand...

BIG -1 for me

At the end of the day I think it's a very week link and needs to be fixed.

Stuff happens and there should be some margin...

I would rather drive a car with air bags then the same car without if I had a choice, especially if I have family in the car.

Doesn't mean I am a bad driver, because some days things go pear shape.

Its like car insurance. Just because I feel like I am a good driver doesn't mean I don't need it..........
 
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John Clark said:
The anti-splat modification is a case in point. If it does work as promised, it could add to the margin of safety of a competent pilot. My issue is the person that installs the mod and feels that the nosewheel is now invincible. And no, that isn't an exaggeration, I have heard that logic expressed.
Click to expand...

Okay.....I see what you mean. I agree, it won't be invincible, as it's still going to bend at the top, if worst goes to worst. The margin of safety is eliminating a prop strike and possible pole vault action.........hopefully.

L.Adamson
 
Rv 9A Flip Over

I recently was asked if I'd be interested in selling my RV 9A on line out of Barnstormers. When the subject of the flip over that occurred 8 years and 250 hours ago came up the potential buyer shied away saying any RV with damage history is going to be automatically worth 10 to 15K less regardless of the extent of damage and quality of repairs. I was really taken back the plane is a beautiful 9A with exceptionable workmanship. Anyone with any experience in attempting to sell their RV?
 
Damage history is tough to overcome. Usually price over comes it and that means a deep discount.

Back to the basics of this thread. Sorry for the thread drift.
 
John Clark said:
The anti-splat modification is a case in point. If it does work as promised, it could add to the margin of safety of a competent pilot. My issue is the person that installs the mod and feels that the nosewheel is now invincible. And no, that isn't an exaggeration, I have heard that logic expressed.
John Clark
Click to expand...

Thank You John:
I agree with you 100 percent! Our product was conceived solely with the intent of adding a small safety margin to the completely unexpected event that may fail the gear leg without it. Not to make the nose gear into something Caterpillar would take pride in. I am absolutely positive that were you to consult any of the pilots that found themselves in this unfortunate failure situation, if they expected it, the answer would be no. Unfortunately there isn't in existence a training venue that can teach to proficiency, landing the A model aircraft in a plowed field emergency, or in grass with unknown large pot holes and depressions. Not using a devise that can help just makes no sense, sort of like not wearing a seat belt because you are a good pilot. We sincerely hope no one places themselves in a situation that potentially could harm them or destroy property, based on having a "Nose Job" installed on their airplane. One who would do this should rethink their involvement in aviation. I do agree with and am glad John brought this issue up. Allan
Anti-Splat-Aero LLC
 
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I'd have to agree with some other posters here. On hard surfaced runways, avoiding nose gear problems is 99.9% about proper technique. I have hundreds of hard surface landings on my 6A and I've never even rubbed the nose fairing once and I have not even come close to touching down on the nose gear first- ever. You need to fly by the numbers and use a consistent technique on EVERY landing.

I don't land on grass and I don't even taxi on grass (hand pull only). One gopher or rabbit hole even at walking pace can fold the gear under some circumstances. I really slow down on asphalt if there is a big crack or mismatch in the pavement and always cross it at a tangent. Stick is always full aft when taxiing which helps unload the nose gear a few pounds with prop blast.

If you operate off grass, I would strongly consider the Anti Splat setup and if you have trouble with your landings it is an extra margin of safety on pavement too.

We must remember there are thousands of A models flying with hundreds of thousands of landings on them which have never folded the gear. Every one that has had a problem on asphalt was due to taxiing over something they shouldn't have or landing on the nose gear first or perhaps a severe shimmy issue (mitigated by proper tire pressure and fork breakout force).

These devices offer an extra measure of safety quite certainly when something goes wrong or if you operate off rough strips but I have no plans to install one on my 6A. I put these in the same category as stall warning or AOA devices. I already have an ASI and a GPS to crosscheck if need be. If you pay attention to these as you should be and follow a few other simple rules, you don't need another device. Again, in over 30 years of flying, I've never even come close to an inadvertent stall. So while I agree these things have a place, I also observe that people often want more stuff to protect them from improper technique and bad habits. Depending on the pilot and type of flying they do, not everyone needs these things.
 
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I have to admit I'm not familiar with any other type where calculating the weight on the nosewheel is any factor whatsoever. Maybe they exist, I don't know.
 
chevy said:
BIG -1 for me

At the end of the day I think it's a very week link and needs to be fixed.
Stuff happens and there should be some margin...
I would rather drive a car with air bags then the same car without if I had a choice, especially if I have family in the car.
Doesn't mean I am a bad driver, because some days things go pear shape.
Its like car insurance. Just because I feel like I am a good driver doesn't mean I don't need it..........
Click to expand...

Justin, You need to exercise caution when editing quotes. by removing two words from my statement you changed the meaning completely.

I said: Bluntly, I'm getting tired of people trying to fix incompetence with technology.

You quoted it as: Bluntly, I'm getting tired of people trying to fix incompetence

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Sorry,

Missing two words, my bad...... Still means the same thing. With or without technology.

If I can make something better or increase a safety margin With technology because of maybe my lack of ability...... I will....
 
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chevy said:
Sorry,

Missing two words, my bad...... Still means the same thing. With or without technology.

If I can make something better or increase a safety margin With technology because of maybe my lack of ability...... I will....
Click to expand...

I agree with both sides. Hate the "technology" added to my power devices to keep me from picking up my lawn mower and using it as a hedge trimmer but love the anti-lock brakes on my car. On my RV I have not added any "technology" to the engine as it is still the same as Lycoming made 50 years ago. Maybe there is some "technology" that will improve on the safety margin of the engine but I have not seen it yet (your thoughts may vary). I do love the GPS "technology" and my iPad as I think it increases my safety margin with navigation and weather.
Add "technology" where needed and don't where not. All opinions will vary but when it comes right down to it, you are the single most important part of saving your bacon. That may include your decision to add "technology" to give you more margin.
Just remember that nothing makes you invincible.
 
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Well Said!!!!!

...Our new "Nose Job Kit" has been pretty well tested since its conception. They have saved several prop strikes, subsequent engine tear downs and God knows how much if any carnage. This is intended to increase the safety margin if and when you need it. If you operate off of hard surface only and never make a mistake you most likely will not need this improvement. Ask yourself this! If I am cruising along in all of my perfection of technique and suddenly, i hear a big bang, it gets real quiet up front and an off field landing on a plowed field is eminent. Do I wish I had made the small investment in a "Nose Job" at this point? If you haven't purchased one of these kits already you may want to take another look at this and our other safety related products. All landings aren't planed and when faced with this situation I can pretty much guarantee you will want everything you can get between you and the ground. Regards all, Allan...:D AntiSplatAero.com
 
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Trust the pilot to tell you what caused the crash...RIGHT

gasman said:
If you try hard enough, you can break anything............ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjEmkY

But these landings can be saved................. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2VQjxuhYhc&NR=1
Click to expand...

Take a look at the gear collapse of the Piper and then read the accident report. Wind shear with winds at 5 kts? Yeah, right. You can even wreck a Piper if you try to force it onto the runway when it still wants to fly. This guy wouldn't take "no" for an answer and was determined to get that nose on the pavement even after the plane made multiple attempts to get back in the air. The landing nose-over videos of RVs look very similar -too fast and poor technique. Is the front gear of an RV less robust than a Piper or Cessna? Yes, and therefore much less forgiving. But for the person who started this thread, check the AOPA archives and read about the rebuilt 182 they gave away a couple of years ago. They had a tough time finding one without a wrinkled firewall. I wouldn't be afraid to buy a nose dragger RV - just get some good training and don't hesitate to abandon a landing that isn't going well.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
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