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What will sell an LSA?

M

mcsteatlh

Active Member
Here is my thinking on what will sell an LSA.

I'm sure all LSA's are going to meet the max speed limits so you can't use speed to sell the plane. Stall? Same thing! Everyone will be at the mins and max for stall and the one that boasts slowest stall speed can't really use that to sell the plane. So what sells these planes? These four things, creative features, useful load, price, and looks are what will sell the planes. My thoughts of these four points are thus:

Looks: Looks, are subjective. We all know that someone will buy something just for its looks, than to buy something else that is proven to be a better performer.

Price: Price is supposed to be what LSA is all about, right? Cessna Skycatcher $115,000??????????

Creative Features: Wow, with that plane, I can trailer it home and not pay high priced hanger fees. I can use 93 octane in this plane... and. etc, etc, etc.

Usefull load: Every LSA plane I have looked at can go 118mph, and all have six GPH advertised, and all stall at xx speed, and all have two seats, but this one can carry some baggage with half fuel and two people, hmmmmmm!!

Just my humble opinion.

Comments welcome.

McStealth
 
mcsteatlh said:
Price: Price is supposed to be what LSA is all about, right? Cessna Skycatcher $115,000??????????
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You're comparing to planes that you have to build yourself, and that come with no warranty, and are harder to insure. Compare against other certificated 2-seaters and it looks much better. The brand name really helps too.
 
Creative Feature: Light Aerobatic Capability

I think mcstealth is right that "creative features" may differentiate, and thus help sell, an LSA.

Certainly for me, some aerobatic capability would be a most useful such "creative feature."

John

P.S. Mel has kindly suggested I might build a Texas Sport Cub, and certify it to do aerobatics, but then I couldn't be part of the RV Family. :(
 
Space

One other selling point may be cockpit room...
Since a narrow fuselage might make the LSA too fast, I've noticed some of the European designs are making the cokpits wider.
For students used to elbowing their instructors in a C-150, this might be a selling point.... :)
Take top speed out, and the design criteria can lead to different solutions.

gil in Tucson
 
Nope. No comparison.

Dgamble said:
You're comparing to planes that you have to build yourself, and that come with no warranty, and are harder to insure. Compare against other certificated 2-seaters and it looks much better. The brand name really helps too.
Click to expand...

I'm not comparing any one plane to another. I'm not comparing brand name or warranties, or insurance issues. I'm just pointing out that 'price' was one of the platforms that touted LSA will be a huge bonus for GA. As I see it, if I had $115,000, I would be buying a very nice, completed RV 6, 7, on 9. Heck, I might buy a J model Mooney for that matter. I exagerate here but you get my gist. Also, the difference between buying, and bulding, is another argument all together.

Mcstealth
 
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mcsteatlh said:
I'm not comparing any one plane to another. I'm not comparing brand name or warranties, or insurance issues. I'm just pointing out that 'price' was one of the platforms that touted LSA will be a huge bonus for GA. As I see it, if I had $115,000, I would be buying a very nice, completed RV 6, 7, on 9. Heck, I might buy a J model Mooney for that matter. I exagerate here but you get my gist. Also, the difference between buying, and bulding, is another argument all together.

Mcstealth
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I see where you're coming from, but I don't think you're going to buy a brand new Mooney for $115k. My point is, there may be competition at the $115k price point with an already built RV, but people that would buy or build experimental are not the target market, nor are people that are sufficiently licensed (or, frankly, capable) to fly something as complex as a Mooney.

I agree with you that for $115k I could find a far more capable used airplane, but I'm not in the target market either. Those that are shopping for a brand new certificated airplane will view that price in comparison to other brand new certificated airplanes, and will find it quite reasonable. A brand new $115k Cessna will be a huge bonus to GA.
 
My opinion: $$$$

Cheap to buy, cheap to maintain, cheap for FBO's. It'd be pretty awesome to have a fleet of cheap LSA's to do basic flight training that can be rented for < $50 an hour.

Most people I know simply can't afford the $9000+ it takes to get a license. Just my opinion but flying's just too darn expensive for most and a $115,000 price tag doesn't exactly open doors. If someone can afford to drop a cool $100k on a toy (let's face it...these are big toys for most of us), they would have done it already.

On the other hand, it's nice that older folks (and younger folks!) in danger of loosing their medical have an option but I just don't see this revitalizing anything unless the price comes down.

I hope I'm wrong.
 
mcsteatlh said:
Here is my thinking on what will sell an LSA.
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I'd say you're pretty much right on here. However, I'd separate these into paper qualities and flying qualities.

Paper qualities will include useful load and speed. 500lb is a minimum, and 550 is pretty useful, pardon the pun. We have 600lb and that works out well.

Flying qualities include visibility, control harmony and ease of landing. Of these, the last is the hardest to judge, particularly for a young pilot, and the most important.

The CT sells itself very well on paper, but is trickier to land. The Evektor sells itself better in flight, but can be limited on load and expensive. They are the two best sellers by far. I'm not sure where Cessna will come in.

TODR
 
jcoloccia said:
It'd be pretty awesome to have a fleet of cheap LSA's to do basic flight training that can be rented for < $50 an hour.
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Expect to pay 2x that amount :eek: :mad: :(

Wish they'd make one with a six pack, I think it would be cheaper and lighter. Flight schools would also price it cheaper as it's not a glass panel. The problem is that it would be harder to sell for Cessna and wouldn't make financial sense.
 
Not so on weight...

Paul Thomas said:
...
Wish they'd make one with a six pack, I think it would be cheaper and lighter.
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Paul... not so on the weight.

Two vacuum gyros, a vacuum pump and an electric gyro weigh more than a Dynon D-180 or equivalent.... and that doesn't even take into account the weight of the two pitot/static instrument and all of the engine instruments.
Check the weights out in the catalogs... :)
Since gross weight is a hard limit for the LSA, any gyro stuff will be Dynon or equivalent....

gil in Tucson
 
Paul Thomas said:
Expect to pay 2x that amount :eek: :mad: :(
Click to expand...
I've found LSA renting in the $80 to $90/hr range (wet, of course). Rented a Katana this weekend for some mountain flying training at $100/hr. LSA rates don't seem to be that unreasonable.

TODR
 
They ARE selling...

According to Aero-News Network Tuesday - over 400 orders have been received since Sunday.

I have no doubts that the 162 will succeed. Flight schools across the US have been waiting a successor to the 152 for, what - 30 years or so? There is a huge pent up demand. And while there are some foreign planes selling - I think that the brand name "CESSNA" - and everything that it stands for will quickly overtake any but the strongest import.

Less than half the cost of a 172, roomier and faster than a 152. Just have to deal with the weight issue...

Remember - it is more than an LSA. This is a TRAINER and will be used for that - whether its an LSA student or a PPL student.
 
mcsteatlh said:
I'm sure all LSA's are going to meet the max speed limits so you can't use speed to sell the plane. McStealth
Click to expand...

Thank you for the discussion.

I have to differ with you regarding the expecatation of equal performance from all LSA's. A lot of manufacturers will deceptively claim to meet the max speed limit, but few will actually get there. So far it looks like Van will produce a kit that will meet the speed limit without pants or streamlining details - and one airplane will be documented to meet the requirements for Sport Pilots. Perhaps one and only one RV-12 will be built that way. If Van decides to produce a factory-built S-LSA, or a 90% kit Ex-LSA version, you could reasonably expect those to fly within the speed limit. But many of us prefer the flexibility of the experimental amateur-built (ExAB) category. An RV-12 built and certified as ExAB may exceed the Sport Pilot speed limit with virtually no fear of enforcement action, which would be all but impossible anyway.

Note for newbies: ExAB is a specific type of airworthiness certificate.

A workable understanding of the Light Sport/Sport Pilot rule and the various types of airworthiness certificates leads me to belive that speed will still be a big selling point for the newest RV.

Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, TX
http://flybigbend.com
 
I agree with Westexflyboy -

I am looking at the RV-12 as a first kit as I anticipate it will be somewhat less expensive, and a quicker/easier build than her bigger sisters. I full expect that when she has pants on she will easily cruise at 120 kts +. I have a full PPL and don't intend on registering it as an LSA. She'll be built light - day/night VFR. Hopefully I'll get some good years of flying out of her while I work on the next project.

DJ
 
PPL only?

westexflyboy said:
Thank you for the discussion.

I have to differ with you regarding the expecatation of equal performance from all LSA's. A lot of manufacturers will deceptively claim to meet the max speed limit, but few will actually get there. So far it looks like Van will produce a kit that will meet the speed limit without pants or streamlining details - and one airplane will be documented to meet the requirements for Sport Pilots. Perhaps one and only one RV-12 will be built that way. If Van decides to produce a factory-built S-LSA, or a 90% kit Ex-LSA version, you could reasonably expect those to fly within the speed limit. But many of us prefer the flexibility of the experimental amateur-built (ExAB) category. An RV-12 built and certified as ExAB may exceed the Sport Pilot speed limit with virtually no fear of enforcement action, which would be all but impossible anyway.

Note for newbies: ExAB is a specific type of airworthiness certificate.

A workable understanding of the Light Sport/Sport Pilot rule and the various types of airworthiness certificates leads me to belive that speed will still be a big selling point for the newest RV.

Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, TX
http://flybigbend.com
Click to expand...


ExAB: can a sport pilot ticket fly that classification?
 
Speed Rules!

mcsteatlh said:
ExAB: can a sport pilot ticket fly that classification?
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The rules for Sport Pilots do not address airworthiness certificates, so yes, a Sport Pilot can fly an ExAB, or any other experimental type, or any standard category aircraft that meets the definition of a light sport aircraft (i.e. 1320 lbs max gross weight, two seats or less, etc.) I don't foresee the FAA coming to your airport to do a scientific flight test to determine the maximum speed of your homebuilt airplane.

The logisitics of proving a speed violation, and the impossible nature of that undertaking is apparent. This is why the EAA, in their official comments prior to passage of the rule, recommended the maximum speed provision be stricken from the rule, and why many of us think that part of the rule will eventually go away.

Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, TX
http://flybigbend.com
 
westexflyboy said:
I have to differ with you regarding the expecatation of equal performance from all LSA's. A lot of manufacturers will deceptively claim to meet the max speed limit, but few will actually get there.
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Absolutely. I've flown in one LSA that did 125kt ISA at slightly above 0' MSL DA and also one that was doing well to make 95kt. The claims are just that - claims. Fly it yourself, but pay attention to DA and aircraft loading - remember that 130 lb under MGTW is about 10%.

We plan on and always get 110kt in the CT, regardless of DA and load. If there's nowhere we have to be, we sometimes slow down to 100kt for a quieter, most economical and, if it's bumpy, smoother ride. We were seeing 110kt ISA and 125kt TAS at ~9000' DA at less than WOT this weekend over Montana.

I suppose I'd be happy with 110kt cruise out of a LSA. Climb of 1000fpm at SL and at least 500 ft at 8000' DA. 550 lb useful load. Hopefully the RV-12 will deliver - I would think so.

TODR
 
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the_other_dougreeves said:
I've found LSA renting in the $80 to $90/hr range (wet, of course). Rented a Katana this weekend for some mountain flying training at $100/hr. LSA rates don't seem to be that unreasonable.

TODR
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The number given is from a flight school that's getting 6 of them and it's not an official number. I hope they'll come in lower, but I somehow doubt it.

As far as the glass panel weight, I thought that glass panels added weight as a general rule. A G1000 172SP weights more than a steam guage 172SP and that's what I based my theory on. Is the G300 that light? Does an LSA really need a 6 pack?

LSA market is olders folks, I don't know how much they like computers. The plane is selling so it's not a terrible move, but how much more market could they take?
 
Paul Thomas said:
LSA market is olders folks, I don't know how much they like computers.
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Good point but if I were starting over today, I would want to learn a glass panel from the get go. Us older folks are just going to have to do some re-learning.
 
Rob, thanks for the URL to Aero TV.

The disappointing thing is that Van didn't get into any of the details of whats next for the RV-12 such as:

Status of the revised kit.
New wing selection.
Any changes of the fuel tank size, shape or position.
Target kit production date.

After flying the Sport Cruiser I'm convicned I would be very content with a light sport aircraft. So I am ready to sign up for a 12 (after I get a ride in the new and improved version to confirm the results of the redesign.)

I'm thinking Sun and Fun next year might be the earliest I will get that opportunity.

Thanks again for the heads up to Aero TV.

Does anyone know if Vans is giving a talk about the 12 at an Oshkosh forum and could they relay that information to this site?

Frank
 
FrankS said:
Rob, thanks for the URL to Aero TV.

The disappointing thing is that Van didn't get into any of the details of whats next for the RV-12 such as:

Status of the revised kit.
New wing selection.
Any changes of the fuel tank size, shape or position.
Target kit production date.

After flying the Sport Cruiser I'm convicned I would be very content with a light sport aircraft. So I am ready to sign up for a 12 (after I get a ride in the new and improved version to confirm the results of the redesign.)

I'm thinking Sun and Fun next year might be the earliest I will get that opportunity.

Thanks again for the heads up to Aero TV.

Does anyone know if Vans is giving a talk about the 12 at an Oshkosh forum and could they relay that information to this site?

Frank
Click to expand...

I agree. I want to see the removable wings in action. I want to know real world "trailorability." I want.......Sound like a teenager, don't I.

I read on another post that an RV-12 presentation by Van is scheduled for Thursday! I hope good stuff is relayed then.

McStealth
 
LSA hasn't been invented yet

LSA will fail if the target is merely the 700-thousand existing pilots. We'd all have to lose our medical at once to make that option viable.

LSA will succeed when vendors find a way to reach the 50 MILLION or so who would take up flying as a passtime if it were no more difficult, dangerous, or expensive than golf or motorcyling.

None of the current offerings even come close to reaching that market. Most are rag-and-tube Cub lookalikes that the average joe would never set foot in, much less purchase. A few, like the -12, at least look modern, but they still aren't any easier to fly.

Here's what's needed:

-- Modern, sporty look that inspires confidence
-- Automotive-style interior
-- Stall-proof (or at least idiot-resistant)
-- No rudder pedals
-- No mixture control
-- Drives like a car
-- Twist-grip accelerator, with detents for take-off, climb, cruise, land.
-- Traffic display
-- On-board weather
-- GPS that displays a map that a non-pilot might recognize (and doesn't require a degree to operate).
-- Glideslope landing display with integrated AOA
-- A few, simple guages that don't all look the same to non-pilots
-- Idiot lights to monitor systems​
In other words, an updated Ercoupe with modern avionics (some of which hasn't been invented yet).

Then, someone needs to invent a new kind of airport where people can go to fly these things. It will look more like a country club than an airport. Most people will be about as likely to buy their own plane as they would a golf cart.

And we'll need some way to manage a 50-fold increase in the number of aircraft in the air. LSA's will probably need an autopilot that prevents the plane from getting too close to other traffic or venturing into commercial airspace.

If it sounds expensive, it would still be an order of magnitude simpler than a Corolla. How much do you think your Toyota would cost if they only built 500 a year?

 
mcsteatlh said:
ExAB: can a sport pilot ticket fly that classification?
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Yes. As long as the plane meets the LSA requirements. It is the same as the certificated airplanes that meet the LSA requirements (i.e. Champ, ErCoupe, Taylorcraft, etc.). These planes are not registered LSA's but a sport pilot can pilot them.
 
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