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RV-6 Rudder Authority

really a question for flying 6's.
If a guy was getting ready to build a 6, what airframe changes would you make?
Is a nose dragger that much easier than a tailwheel?
6 or 6A?
I'm 51 with little or no time to speak of.
Does the 6/6a need more rudder?
Thanks in advance for the great responses.
Ben Lane
 
6 /6A

If a guy was getting ready to build a 6, what airframe changes would you make? Follow the plans and fly sooner. Do not buy panel parts until the bitter end. Avionics is rapidly changing. When it looks like a plane, you are half done!


Is a nose dragger that much easier than a tailwheel?
Folks tear up both. Build what you want. Moving around a shared hangar is harder with the nosewheel.

6 or 6A?

I'm 51 : Better get started.Its later than you think!

Does the 6/6a need more rudder? No-mine has the small rudder.Plenty of rudder. Follow the plans!
 
If a guy was getting ready to build a 6, what airframe changes would you make? Follow the plans and fly sooner. Do not buy panel parts until the bitter end. Avionics is rapidly changing. When it looks like a plane, you are half done!


Is a nose dragger that much easier than a tailwheel?
Folks tear up both. Build what you want. Moving around a shared hangar is harder with the nosewheel.

6 or 6A?

I'm 51 : Better get started.Its later than you think!

Does the 6/6a need more rudder? No-mine has the small rudder.Plenty of rudder. Follow the plans!

I agree with Vern. I have 2,700+ hours on mine.
Built what you want. The Tri-Gear is not a landing gear on the front. It is a Taxi wheel. You need to FLY both to the tie down.
 
Agree with what evryone else has said. We built one with the small tail, the mid size tail, and finally one with the large 7/9 tail. In many ways I prefer the small tail the most, though my experience is over the years that it's about at it's limit with 15-18 knt of direct xwnd...whereas the big tail would handle much more. But, that's not the whole story. Once slowed down that huge tail/sail was a double edge sword in the wind whereas the small tail was a joy slowed down in the wind. The larger tail also very slightly helps the tail waggle, but after a few hours you never notice it. Overall my favorite SbS RV is a small tail, 180hp -6 built light and FAST! Do as others have said....keep it light, clean, light, straight and did I say light?!? Your reward will be a fantastic handling plane!

Cheers,
Stein
 
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That is what I am aiming for !

I am going to follow Stein, I trust his experience.

Small fin and rudder.
:)
 
Flying the -6 is not hard. Although at 5 hours of transition you will wonder "what the heck am I putting myself through this for?" A couple more hours and you're fine. I don't have that many hours in mine and regularly fly when the x wind has grounded pretty much every other pleasure flier on the field, nose wheel and tail wheel alike.
 
What Vern said - follow the plans and fly sooner.
Rather than a 360, I would install a wobbly prop.

Pete
 
really a question for flying 6's.
If a guy was getting ready to build a 6, what airframe changes would you make?
Is a nose dragger that much easier than a tailwheel?
6 or 6A?
I'm 51 with little or no time to speak of.
Does the 6/6a need more rudder?
Thanks in advance for the great responses.
Ben Lane

If you don't have any time in a tail dragger, then you will enjoy the 6A. It has great taxi visibility and you will LOVE the way it lands.

If you don't need the ego boost of the wheel in the back and are willing to give the nose wheel some TLC (respect) which is not hard, you will be a happy RV owner....... Build it as the plans say.
 
Tall or short tail?

Sorry for the hijack, but my question fits fits in with the topic.
I have a damaged rudder on my 6A, do I replace it with a 6 rudder or replace it with a 7 fin&rudder?
What are the big pros and cons?

Thanx
Eddie
 
Ben and Eddy,

I bought my RV-6 with a small tail, and later built and swapped in an RV-8 V-stab and rudder. Some observations with about 300-400 hours flown with each tail, but first a few caveats:

My plane is a Super Six, sort of a Rocket/Six hybrid, and not built stock. I changed to the 8 tail to add the rudder counterbalance, on the counsel of some racing RV friends. I did not feel the 6 tail was lacking in any regard, but with the big motor and speed capabilities of the plane, flutter margin was the driving factor. A stock 6, built to plans, and flown in its envelope has plenty of margin, so the stock tail is very sufficient. Its has very nice lines too (IMHO, and FWIW!)

My observations following the switch to the 8 tail, which is 5" taller than the 6 tail:
- My plane slowed 2-3 knots at full speed (larger aerodynamic footprint)
- Interestingly enough, I feel that I need slightly more right rudder in all regimes than I did with the six tail. With the 6 tail, I needed right rudder in a climb, it was almost feet on the floor in normal cruise, and slight left rudder at race speeds or in a decent. With the 8 tail, I need a little more right rudder in the climb, and still need a touch of right rudder in a decent, or at race speed. I did not/do not have a fixed tab on either rudder. Go figure that one, eh! Its subtle, and both tails fly great on the plane...no complaints. Could be the taller V-stab with a touch of offset creates the situation (I kept that slight offset the same between tails). Could be the larger aspect ratio rudder makes a difference. Could just be the difference in construction (trailing edge radius, trueness, etc). Just not sure. This summer I made flat fin and rudder caps, that cut off about 1.75" of the 5" I gained with the 8 tail, as a hopeful speed mod, and surprisingly, it feels more like it did with the 6 tail. Will I get the speed back...I aint tellin' yet! ;)

Stein, it would be very interesting to hear what your observations are on this right rudder requirement aspect, with your experience with all the tails.

- My observations during landings and ground ops are, no noticeable difference between the two. Crosswind performance and taxi feel the same to me. I can imagine a 7/9 tail would be more sail area if taxiing in a wind. The 8 tail doesn't feel different to me though.

If I had it to do over again, I'd perhaps build a custom 4/6 tail, and add the counterbalance to that during the build. Dave Anders did that on his fast 4, Greg Nelson did it on his fast F1 Rocket, and I think Robby Attaway did it on his fast 6, since sold, and being enjoyed by another VAFer. Not needed for a stock 6 (stock tail is AOK), but a neat idea!!

For Eddie: As far as adding a 7/9 tail to a flying 6...later 6 kits came with an 8 v-stab and rudder. I don't think they ever shipped with a 7/9 tail, so check with the factory on recommendations. Sounds like Stein did it, so it may be an option, but good to check for any caveats or additional info needed.

Cheers,
Bob
 
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Somewhere here archived in some old threads are more details that I've posted before, but as noted each has it's pro's and it's con's. I like both for different reasons, but all things being equal (and not spinning the plane past a turn or so), I personally like the small tail a bit more - I kind of like the "twichiness" of a light, well rigged, well built -6 with the small tail! :)

The -7's as a whole just handle a bit more solidly and compared to the -6's with the small tail the -7's certainly just land better, but Van's really hit a home-run with the originally designed -4's and -6's in my opinion (if they are built light). Below is a pic of two of our -6's some years ago, one with the large tail and one with the small tail (we also had a -7 with the intermediate tail, but no way to get it into the picture)....so we were flying all three at the same time for awhile. Everyone's notes are pretty much spot on and I could probably convince you to go either direction.

That said, I'd make a determination on replacement based on a couple things. If I had a 320 with a FP or wood prop on the front, I'd stay away from the bigger tail, it is significantly heavier and if your plane is a TD with that FFW configuration you're already on the aft side of the CG range....and the big tail just weighs more. However, if you had a NW plane with a 360/CS prop, then that tail would help you out.

As others have noted in the past, the small tail just flat runs out of authority at around 15-18kts of direct Xwnd, and while the larger tail will handle more, on the ground it takes more work because the whole assembly is a much bigger sail.

Anyway, you can see below the differences of the tails both installed on -6's.

Cheers,
Stein

tails3.JPG



PS. Putting that 7/9 tail onto a -6 isn't exactly a bolt on affair, it does take some work....
 
Gasman, thank you for your kind words of support for us nose-draggers. I like the fact that I don't have to worry much about ground loops, and I'm sitting in a level attitude even when I'm on the ground. The VAF website is definitely biased towards tailwheel aircraft, but them's the breaks. Nothing is any BETTER than anything else...it's just about what you like.

Jim Bower
RV-6A N143DJ
 
Time is on my side...

really a question for flying 6's.
If a guy was getting ready to build a 6, what airframe changes would you make?
Is a nose dragger that much easier than a tailwheel?
6 or 6A?
I'm 51 with little or no time to speak of.
Does the 6/6a need more rudder?
Thanks in advance for the great responses.
Ben Lane

Ben,
First, congrats on being a potential builder. I couldn't agree more with Stein: "Van's really hit a home-run with the originally designed -4's and -6's IMHO " Hence why I have not strayed from his original design in my own 3 "RV's" (RV4 and 2 sortas) over the past 25 years.

Here are answers to your questions:
1. See my * below.
2. Depends on your perspective, have you any TW time?
3. Get some time in something else first.
4. No*

RV's are not particularly difficult airplanes to own or fly but like anything, alot depends on YOU. If you were a friend of mine I would ask you the following questions:

1. What is your flying background/ratings experience?
2. Ever flown an RV? If not, get a ride and see if you even like it.
3. Visit your local EAA chapter, attend a meeting and speak to the RV "gurus".

Good Luck, email me offline anytime with questions: [email protected]
V/R
Smokey

*My Harmon Rocket has a stock RV4 empenage and a 300HP IO-540 out front. It has plenty of rudder and elevator authority even at low speed/high power settings, right down to stall speed. My current RV is a hybrid I built from an RV6 fuselage with RV4 wings and tail, I call it the RVX. It's RV4 tail, slightly shorter RV4 wings give it a much more "sprightly" feel I prefer. The larger tail RV's feel heavy to me and look more gangly IMHO. Van designed the larger empenage many years ago when the pre-punched RV's came on the scene. I heard it came about after Van's deciding the general public would be more attracted to a "less sensitive and more forgiving" design (RV9). My guess is liability. Regardless, I would describe the RVX flying qualities as "delightful". :)



The RVX
 
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This summer I made flat fin and rudder caps, that cut off about 1.75" of the 5" I gained with the 8 tail, as a hopeful speed mod, and surprisingly, it feels more like it did with the 6 tail. Will I get the speed back...I aint tellin' yet! ;)

Hey Nasty, I did the same thing on my Rocket. I determined that anything above the counterweight aerodynamically was undesirable and cut about 2" off the top of the VS and rudder. Looks much better now as well. Coach put a -4 VS/rudder on his F1, with a very short (vertically) counterweight, and I did the same in essence.
 
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Hey Nasty, I did the same thing on my Rocket. I determined that anything above the counterweight aerodynamically was undesirable and cut about 2" off the top of the VS and rudder. Looks much better now as well. Coach put a -4 VS/rudder on his F1, with a very short (vertically) counterweight, and I did the same in essence.

Pooner,

I'll bet your set-up looks great...look forward to seeing it. It looks great on Tom's Rocket, and is one of the many very effective mods he did. Coach's (Greg's) -4 empennage on his F1 is a work of art. He did a lot of slick mods too, and even has 3-axis electric trim...very neat stuff!

Some thread drift perhaps...but more good data on then effectiveness and suitability of the 6 tail the OP asked about.

Cheers,
Bob
 
Which replacement to choose?

"For Eddie: As far as adding a 7/9 tail to a flying 6...later 6 kits came with an 8 v-stab and rudder. I don't think they ever shipped with a 7/9 tail, so check with the factory on recommendations. Sounds like Stein did it, so it may be an option, but good to check for any caveats or additional info needed."

Thanks guys, I have a 360 and a CS prop so my weight is on the front limit which throws me towards the tall tail...
Which tall tail is best to put on? (easiest/least work) 7/8/9?
Sounds like 8 is the best?

BTW, just got engaged in my 6a with a small (bent) rudder :D

Regards
Eddie
 
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