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mogas versus pump gas

alcladrv

Well Known Member
I'd like to think this isn't just another thread on using mogas. A Google search turned up this Lycoming 3 part series on "Unleaded Fuel" where the writer draws a very definite distinction between mogas (unleaded fuel for aircraft meeting a definite aviation specification) AND pump gas (unleaded gas sold at your local gas station that is only made to an automotive fuel specification).

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/tips-advice/unleaded-fuels/index.html

It was a very enlighting read for me as I consider using mogas/pump gas in my O-360. Which fuel type do those of you using unleaded gasoline use?

Thanks,

Mike
 
The biggest (and really only major) difference between the two is ethanol content.

Ethanol is one of several (and the most popular, due to cost) "oxygenating" additives added to automotive gasoline to make it run cleaner. The engine itself absolutely does not care whether it is burning ethanol or not, outside of a couple percent horsepower difference. The problem most aircraft have with ethanol is that our fuel systems are not built to tolerate it. Most aircraft have natural rubber components in the fuel system somewhere betweeen fuel tank caps and intake manifold (fuel tank cap seals, fuel tank bladders, fuel sump drains, fuel hoses, fuel pump diaphragms, gaskets, possibly others) that will not react well to ethanol - they get soft, swell up, crack and leak. 100LL contains no ethanol and thus does not suffer from such issues. True "Mogas" contains no ethanol - it is low-90's octane fuel without ethanol. Both are safe to use in aircraft with STC's for such, or specifically built with tolerance to ethanol. "Pump gas", or regular gasoline that you would buy at the local conveniece store for you car, may or may not (most likely DOES) contain ethanol, which will eat away at your rubber seals and will cause you problems (quite possibly catastrophic ones) later on, around 50-100 hours after you start using it. To run pump gas, you have to "harden" your entire fuel system against ethanol.

Ethanol is not the devil - but it is the devils handmaiden. Where you find it, you must guard against it. You must be ABSOLUTELY SURE - and experimental aviation is one of the few spots where this is possible - that your ENTIRE fuel system, from fuel tank cap to intake manifold, is free of natural rubber compounds to be able to run random pump gas successfully (assuming your engine compression ratio allows it with adequate detonation margin).

Let me emphasize it to be clear - if you do not hold a piece of paper from the gum'int saying that you are authorized to do so, then it is your own responsibility to make sure it is SAFE to do so and to prove to the FAA to their satisfaction to give you an airworthiness certificate. Experimental aviation allows us to choose our own weapons with which to wage war, so we have some leeway about how we go about it. We can use the standard off-the-shelf items for our fuel system, which requires us to run 100LL. We can modify that fuel system somewhat with STC-approved components that allow us to run mogas (low-90's fuel without ethanol). In the experimental world we can also toss the regulations out the window entirely and make up our own fuel system (dangerous without knowledge, quite fruitful if you pay attention) that can run any available fuel from liquefied hydrogen to coal. HOWEVER - if we choose to toss those regulations out and built our own fuel system, we have to face head-on the demons that caused those regulations to be in place - which means firm knowledge and facts instead of hearsay and rumor.

Yes, I know how to build one of these fuel systems and I have one. No, I'm not going to tell you how to do it. Yes, it is possible. No, it's not expensive or time-consuming. You just have to know what you are doing, what materials to choose, and no it's not difficult if you are willing to do a little basic chemistry research. No, there is not anybody else that's willing to do it for you - because we would be sued about a half-nanosecond after somebody screwed up and made a smoking hole in the ground. If you want to be safe, then run 100LL. If you want to be smart and efficient, then you need to be self-educated.

This is as far behind the curtain as you get to look - until you choose to believe...
 
I should have clarified my question. I am aware of the issues involving the use of fuel containing ethanol in our planes.

In my area, there are a few gas stations that currently sell and have for quite some time sold ETHANOL FREE 92 octane unleaded premium gasoline, primarily because of their proximity to boat ramps. In testing several samples, I've found that it does not contain any water absorbing liquids like ethanol.

The Lycoming discussion refers to this as "pump gas" and has not approved it for use in their engines. Rather, Lycoming has approved what they refer to as "mogas", which they say meets a certain, more controlled, specification than "pump gas".

So, once again, of those of you using unleaded gasoline in your airplanes, which of the 2, mogas or pump gas, do you use?

Just trying to save a few bucks operating my O-360 powered -7A.

Thanks,

Mike
 
Mike, I didn't read the article in the link you posted, but if, by your definition, "pump gas" is 91-ish Octane fuel with no Ethanol, then I'm running it, and have been for over a year. I have a carbureted O-360 ECI engine with dual PMags, 8.5:1 compression and have no problems, other than on hot days after shutting down if I let the engine heat soak, the fuel will vaporize in the lines causing the engine to run rough for a couple minutes after re-starting.

When I was in the Navy in the '90's, I was always told that "Mogas" was the crappy low-grade gasoline we put into the tow-tractors. Maybe it's just semantics...

Edit: Just skimmed the article. My impression (and it very well could be wrong) is that Lycoming is doing a CYA exercise. Think about it...if there is a performance hit with using "pump gas" and someone's aircraft doesn't perform as per the POH and due to a slightly lower performing engine someone gets hurt or worse, then they'd get sued.
 
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Thanks for your response, Sonny.

I was just using the terms that the Lycoming article uses. Lycoming has very specific definitions of mogas and pump gas.

I also have a carbureted ECI O-360 with 8.5:1 compression. Do you run entirely on the unleaded gasoline or try mix it with some percentage of 100LL to maintain some lead for valve guide lubrication?

Thanks,

Mike
 
I read somewhere in ECI's documentation to run a tank of 100LL about every 50 hours or so...not sure why they say that, or state it so vaguely since they have no way to determine the various airplane's tank capacities. Whatever, I just do what I'm told.

I run a tank of 100LL about that often, maybe more sometimes because I don't have "pump gas" available if I fly in somewhere.
 
I would be interested in knowing if there is any difference too. I run 45 gallons of mid grade ethanol free pump gas with 5 gallons of 100LL mixed in to have a small amount of lead in the tank. I am running an 0-320 150 HP engine and have had good results. I ran a lot of pump gas through my Cessna 172 and it ran better on pump gas with no problems fouling the spark plugs with lead.
 
I read all of the referenced Lycoming information, and my take on their position is that it is not enough to design a fuel system that is compatible with ethanol. It is equally important to control the fuel vapor pressure to avoid vapor lock. Pump gas distributed in the US has a seasonal variation in vapor pressure that is incompatible with this requirement.
 
I work in the refined products transportation system, that being said I would never ever run unleaded gas in a airplane, I see interface cuts of gas that have diesel, kero, jet all mixed together and barely passes the API gravity spec at the end, which is 84 octane for gas, then they blend ethanol to make 87 barely,and Ethanol is the devil, it's so damaging it is not even allowed in the pipeline and will not be anytime soon. I ran car gas with no ethanol in my first homebuilt, it had a continental a 65, I lost power 100 ft above the runway because the gas swelled the neoprene tip on the needle, that was my first dead stick landing at 30 hours total time flying, scared the you know what out of me, til I figured out what caused it.
 
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It MAY be garbage and it MAY ruin the rubber seals. However, I change the spark plugs in my pickup every 75K to 100K. They look great when I pull them out too, comparably... Now my truck has rubber in the fuel lines, crank shafts, rings, injectors, ECM and a bunch of other **** to complicate the process. I am not sure why the rubber in my truck is so much better that the rubber in my aircraft engine. Unless you're NASA rubber is rubber. I run 100LL ONLY because I dont like toting the pump gas back and forth. But I have done it and it runs like a champ. Heck of a lot less plug fowling. You know, about every 10 flights or so you have to lean it out and burn the "carbon" off. Never had to do it with pump gas. Never... So when I build my 7, my pick up is getting an extra tank in the back with a pump for pump gas. Besides if I save $2 a gallon for 1400 or so hours I get a free engine. FREE... :D
 
Wow!

snipped Unless you're NASA, rubber is rubber. snipped :D

Bob,
Your statement above totally stunned me. Talk about a true case of "you don't know what you don't know". Synthetic rubbers come in a dizzying array of compounds, depending on application. Your late model truck DOES in fact have much different rubber compounds used in it, compared to a 1880's vintage Lycoming engine. Back before 1975, the most common rubber used in auto engines and carburetors was Nitrile [aka Buna N]. In 1975, the EPA mandated the end of lead in auto fuel. Manufacturers had to switch to different rubber compounds to deal with the additives that the oil companies had to resort to, [MTBE & MMT being two of them] to get the required octane levels without lead. Dupont Viton is one of those compounds they switched to.
Unfortunately for Chrysler Corp. their carburetor supplier, Carter, kept using Nitrile fuel pump seals. That caused a MAJOR recall on all their cars. I replaced so many Nitrile fuel pump seals with Viton ones in 1975 that I bet I could STILL do it blindfolded today!
Lycoming and their suppliers were more than a decade late in catching up. Any black rubber parts found in your Marvel Schebler carb or Bendix fuel injection system were [are?] made of Nitrile rubber. Same goes for the mechanical fuel pumps on Lycomings. They have since switched to flourosilicone rubber parts. The newer items are red or orange in color. Flourosilicone compounds will hold up against the chemicals found in both unleaded and ethanol laced unleaded fuels.
The auto makers have had to continually upgrade the materials used [including the rubber bits] in their vehicles to keep up with the changes in technology.
Vans supplies Viton O-rings with their fuel caps. The big unknown is how well the fuel tank sealants will hold up to ethanol laced fuels. They do fine with unleaded fuels without ethanol.
Airflow Performance uses flourosilicone rubber in all their components. I believe [not positive] that the current manufacturer for the Bendix fuel injection does the same.

Mark,
See above comments on why the Nitrile rubber tip on the float needle in your carb had problems with unleaded fuel.

Greg,
Nice post outlining some of the issues with ethanol laced gasoline. However, no one has used "natural" rubber in a car for at least 3 to 4 decades. The one exception would be the aftermarket motor mounts made in India [total junk] The quality of automotive aftermarket parts have been going steadily south for the past decade, due to Chinese and 3rd world suppliers.

Charlie
 
I've run Sunoco 93 octane in my F1 a few times with no issues. It has high lead sensitivity and I always run some 100ll in the same tank, with pure 100ll in the other.

Supposedly it has much less if any ethanol in it but I dont know for sure. The guys at airflow performance, who made my injection system told me the only issue I would have would be deterioration of the rubber diaphram in the engine drivven pump from ethanol. The suggested storing the engine with pure 100ll in the fuel system.

Bob
my two cents worth
 
Do we need a Venn diagram?

the writer draws a very definite distinction between mogas (unleaded fuel for aircraft meeting a definite aviation specification) AND pump gas (unleaded gas sold at your local gas station that is only made to an automotive fuel specification).

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/tips-advice/unleaded-fuels/index.html

They refute their own title to the part 2 article, "Pump Gas is not Mogas" by admitting the corner gas station might have mogas.
"Yes, the Lycoming "mogas" might be in the tanks at your corner market or local gas station. No, you cannot determine if the retail "pump gas" is controlled as it needs to be for aviation because filling station pumps do not provide the information needed to match it to "mogas" requirements."

Do we need a Venn diagram? A more accurate title would be, "Without additional testing, we don't know if the pump gas meets the specs we have chosen for the Lycoming defined aviation unleaded gasoline". Not much of a headline. Or, just add a question mark to the original title. "Pump Gas is not Mogas?" That works.

The writer in that paragraph is stating it isn't necessarily a problem of poor quality, it may only be a problem of verification. Who, if anyone is sending of the local pump gas for the additional testing required to meet Lycoming's self-imposed specs for "mogas"? If you don't know what you have- then don't use the fuel is their conclusion. The below link outlines how much of the pump gas quite likely falls into Lycoming's spec. It is a good read.
http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2011/08/14/autogas-experts-explain-why-pump-gas-is-mogas/

Do you think maybe Lycoming is a deep pocket, and anything they do or say might be used against them? Definitely. An 89 million dollar lawsuit is going to dampen a bit of the companies innovation and willingness to communicate possibilities.
http://www.airlaw.com/Press-Releases/Archive/The-Wolk-Law-Firm-obtains-$100-million-dollar-verdict-for-aircraft-engine-failure_22.asp

IMHO, it isn't realistic to expect anything different from Lycoming. Put yourself in the corporate attorney's shoes. He/She is likely horrified at all that they are "approving" anything but 100LL. Meanwhile the economic reality is if they don't, there will be more and more Rotax, Jabirus and fewer Lycomings. Tough spot, but not all that different than the LOP/ROP argument. They will come along....but there will be kicking and screaming:D
 
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