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One of a Kind- Fuel Injected Franklin RV-8

pilotjt

pilotjt

Active Member
Hi Guys, A friend of mine, Jeff Johnson, has been building a true, one of a kind, Franklin powered RV8 for some time now. I know there has been some interest on this subject, so here are a few details and a link to the first ever engine start. I gotta say, Jeff is an expert craftsman and the motor sounds pretty wicked just at idle. I'm looking forward to his first flight....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hAVV9ELTsU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Details: Franklin Engine -
Reduced in weight down to 304 pounds w/ Accessories
Six cylinder -350 Cu. inches
Custom Fuel injection
Custom Cold Air Induction
Custom Ceramic Coated Three into one headers
Electronic ignition
Custom baffles and Alum. Plenum
Any one that is thinking of doing this, but needs help with fwf details, like a custom bed mount, contact Jeff at 770-655-6713.
More progress will be posted in the future....
 
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Sounds good, JT. However, I noted that the plane doesn't have any wings yet. How was the engine getting fuel? Just curious ...
 
Oh, I forgot to Mention...

N8RV, Great Catch!

I forgot to mention Jeff has a custom Aux tank built into the the aft baggage compartment. He has a little door, similar to a car, on the side of the fuselage for fueling it. Great idea and it can be used to balance the cg for solo flight...

FYI, the tail is tied down to the sewer and the engine never gets to a high rpm.
 
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There used to be an admonition from the factory to avoid engine starts until the wings are attached, for structural reasons. Was that question asked?
 
Franlin

Installing a "oddball" engine is a fairly easy task , selling a "oddball " is another story . Just look at the prices of what a 8 with a 320 is listed at, or a Subaru ! There is a 7 for sale with a 540 , lots of interest , no buyers . I am building an 8 , I considered a 540 ( have it for sale in classified ) , even have a 0320 that cost me less than $4500 sitting on a pallet , but to make an 8 have some resale value it needs a 360 lycoming . Save the Franklin for a Breezy or other cool,low and slow plane to build after your RV. That's what my 0320 is for , old age , light sport !
 
Although probably true, many of us build with absolutely no concern of what the sale value will or will not be, those who do should probably just buy a factory made plane.
 
I've thought about it myself. I own (for now) a 47 Stinson 108 with a 150hp Franklin, and that thing is SMOOTH. The 180 hp Franklin would make a GREAT RV powerplant, especially lightened as your friend did. Where is he located? I see you're in N-GA. I'm in Macon.
 
gtmule said:
I've thought about it myself. I own (for now) a 47 Stinson 108 with a 150hp Franklin, and that thing is SMOOTH. The 180 hp Franklin would make a GREAT RV powerplant, especially lightened as your friend did. Where is he located? I see you're in N-GA. I'm in Macon.
Click to expand...

The airplane and Jeff can be found in the hangar next to mine in Cartersville, GA.
 
Kyle Boatright said:
The airplane and Jeff can be found in the hangar next to mine in Cartersville, GA.
Click to expand...

Well I guess I have to get up to Cartersville soon!

Also, got a HARD bite on the Stinson, took him flying once around the pattern, now he's getting insurance quotes and trying to find money between the couch cushions. He's an O3 at RAFB, but live in Dalton, I think. He's got a Corbin of some kind for sale, so he's looking for a small loan or trying to sell his plane. We'll see....
 
Well.

DonFromTX said:
Although probably true, many of us build with absolutely no concern of what the sale value will or will not be, those who do should probably just buy a factory made plane.
Click to expand...

Sooner or later ALL RV's will be up for sale. My wife and I have considered my departure from this life.

Flame suit on!

Best,
 
pilotjt said:
Hi Guys, A friend of mine, Jeff Johnson, has been building a true, one of a kind, Franklin powered RV8 for some time now. I know there has been some interest on this subject, so here are a few details and a link to the first ever engine start. I gotta say, Jeff is an expert craftsman and the motor sounds pretty wicked just at idle. I'm looking forward to his first flight.....
Click to expand...

very cool. Love the people that really exploit the word EXPERIMENTAL. Trying something not done before is definitely true EAB. Tell you friend Good luck and hope he is not discourage by the thread drift.
 
One of a Kind

I don't think this is "a one of a kind". There was a beautiful -8 at the Franklin booth at Oshkosh. The guy was also raving about how much better his engine is over the Lyc.
 
g zero said:
Installing a "oddball" engine is a fairly easy task , selling a "oddball " is another story . Just look at the prices of what a 8 with a 320 is listed at, or a Subaru ! There is a 7 for sale with a 540 , lots of interest , no buyers . I am building an 8 , I considered a 540 ( have it for sale in classified ) , even have a 0320 that cost me less than $4500 sitting on a pallet , but to make an 8 have some resale value it needs a 360 lycoming . Save the Franklin for a Breezy or other cool,low and slow plane to build after your RV. That's what my 0320 is for , old age , light sport !
Click to expand...

Personally,

I would buy this oddball in a heartbeat. 230hp at a lower weight then a lyco and 6 cyclinder sweet sound.

The engine is cheaper then the lycos, so a lower asking price would generate more interest.

Smooth running is also a huge factor for me.

Regards,

Scott
 
I would consider the Franklin engine. And I am leaning toward using one in the future. It's what, 2/3rds the cost of an over-priced Lycoming, with more power. TBO 1500hrs? At my flying rate it's going to take me 10 years to get there, plenty of time to save, or use the cash saved on the purchase for fuel and fly. The Franklin sounds a more than good competitor, when compared to Lycoming.

JMO
 
2bolts said:
I would consider the Franklin engine. And I am leaning toward using one in the future. It's what, 2/3rds the cost of an over-priced Lycoming, with more power. TBO 1500hrs? At my flying rate it's going to take me 10 years to get there, plenty of time to save, or use the cash saved on the purchase for fuel and fly. The Franklin sounds a more than good competitor, when compared to Lycoming.

JMO
Click to expand...

There's a group (of Stinson folks) in NC thinking about building Franklins as well. I think the idea is to build parts for the certified a/c that use them (Stinson and Bellanca, mostly) and new engines for experimentals. Not sure what the status is though.
 
Franklin

If the Franklin is such a great engine why aren't don't we see a ECI , Superior ,Franklin Clone ? . Cold Air Sumps , Exhaust ,Electronic ignitions ,just bolt on a Franklin. Maybe when the Viking Engine Guy gets done with that company he can start a Firewall Fwd Franklin , FFF Engines .
The Stinson that had just enough power to make it to the crash site last week most likely had one under the cowl . That's why there are some STC's for Continentals and Lycomings for the Old 108 !
Fire suit on !
 
DonFromTX said:
Although probably true, many of us build with absolutely no concern of what the sale value will or will not be, those who do should probably just buy a factory made plane.
Click to expand...

Yea, but down the road when it all comes to naught, the money is gone and the original excitement and anticipation have vanished - you could feel better about it.

About all that can be said is tried something different and it did not work out.

The lesson is expensive and time consuming with some rewards and lots of set backs....been there, done that.
 
I guess I am missing a gene that you guys have. I would be proud to have a sticker on mine when finished saying the appraised value was $.32. To me ALL the fun is in the build and flying it, not what someone thinks it is worth when selling it, that just don't even enter the equation for me..

David-aviator said:
Yea, but down the road when it all comes to naught, the money is gone and the original excitement and anticipation have vanished - you could feel better about it.

About all that can be said is tried something different and it did not work out.

The lesson is expensive and time consuming with some rewards and lots of set backs....been there, done that.
Click to expand...
 
Think again...

Tooch said:
I don't think this is "a one of a kind". There was a beautiful -8 at the Franklin booth at Oshkosh. The guy was also raving about how much better his engine is over the Lyc.
Click to expand...

That Franklin at Oshkosh wasn't fuel injected, nor does it have half the custom details of this 8....
 
g zero said:
If the Franklin is such a great engine why aren't don't we see a ECI , Superior ,Franklin Clone ? . Cold Air Sumps , Exhaust ,Electronic ignitions ,just bolt on a Franklin. Maybe when the Viking Engine Guy gets done with that company he can start a Firewall Fwd Franklin , FFF Engines .
Click to expand...

Maybe because Lycomings out number Franklins 10 to 1? (I'm guessing at that ratio).

g zero said:
The Stinson that had just enough power to make it to the crash site most recent week most likely had one under the cowl . That's why there are some STC's for Continentals and Lycomings for the Old 108 !
Fire suit on !
Click to expand...

And an Lycoming, or Continental of equivalent power of the Franklin in the Stinson's involved would have changed the outcomes of those two incidents?

I don't think so sir, what those planes needed was more power, because they were overloaded for the take offs shown, not a Lycoming, or Continental.

It’s a matter of each to their own, I think the Franklin is certainly a viable alternative for a Lycoming. They are a **** of a lot cheaper, even with the 1500 hr TBO. Smoother, that’s probably down to the 6 cyl configuration as against Lycomings 4, on 8’s. The price of a 6 cyl Lycoming Wow! I’d need to sell my house to buy and fly behind one.

If the Franklin was the way for me, when I need an engine, I’ll overcome the engineering problems to get the engine/airframe working.

That's being experimental is all about. So long as the aeroplane is safe, weight, CoG etc.
 
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Here-here.

I love my O-360, but I love my Franklin-150 as well. With modern lightweight accessories, electronic ignition, a cleaned up intake and exhaust system etc, the 180 hp Franklin would be an awesome engine for an RV. The youtube video (or something I saw) implies that this one is making 195 hp on fuel injection, which seems reasonable.

Franklins were always very well engineered, close tolerance engines. Part of the reason they never took off in the market is that they were more expensive to build than the equivalent Lyc (esp when you consider 4 vs 6 cyls). That isn't as much of an issue with modern manufacturing. The only thing I don't know about is the Franklin's ability to handle acro, because if there's a weakpoint in the 150-165 hp Franklins, it's the crank. This may not apply to the 180-220 hp cranks though.

-Chuck

2bolts said:
Maybe because Lycomings out number Franklins 10 to 1? (I'm guessing at that ratio).



And an Lycoming, or Continental of equivalent power of the Franklin in the Stinson's involved would have changed the outcomes of those two incidents?

I don't think so sir, what those planes needed was more power, because they were overloaded for the take offs shown, not a Lycoming, or Continental.

It?s a matter of each to their own, I think the Franklin is certainly a viable alternative for a Lycoming. They are a **** of a lot cheaper, even with the 1500 hr TBO. Smoother, that?s probably down to the 6 cyl configuration as against Lycomings 4, on 8?s. The price of a 6 cyl Lycoming Wow! I?d need to sell my house to buy and fly behind one.

If the Franklin was the way for me, when I need an engine, I?ll overcome the engineering problems to get the engine/airframe working.

That's being experimental is all about. So long as the aeroplane is safe, weight, CoG etc.
Click to expand...
 
g zero said:
If the Franklin is such a great engine why aren't don't we see a ECI , Superior ,Franklin Clone ? . Cold Air Sumps , Exhaust ,Electronic ignitions ,just bolt on a Franklin. Maybe when the Viking Engine Guy gets done with that company he can start a Firewall Fwd Franklin , FFF Engines .
The Stinson that had just enough power to make it to the crash site last week most likely had one under the cowl . That's why there are some STC's for Continentals and Lycomings for the Old 108 !
Fire suit on !
Click to expand...

There have been LOOOOTTS of O-360 powered Cherokees flown into the trees, too.
 
Franklin

Are they selling Franklins (new) today ? When was the last old one built ? I have never seen or worked on one . I have done some work on Stinsons , one had an o470 firewall forward out of a 182 ,the other a Lycoming 0435 with a strange variable pitch prop .
I know Lycomings aren't cheap , but good used ones , low time , cores are out there . The price of new is almost crazy . Look outside the box for an engine . Lots of Biplanes on barnstormers with o320 and 360's selling for less than $20k.
A friend of mine just picked up a salvage Mooney , it ran out of fuel ,landed on road ,plane was damaged by the crew removing it from the road . I am selling the engine out of it ,0360a1d with all accssories 275 SMOH , can hear it run $12,750 . Find a Franklin for that .
 
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=89275&highlight=Franklin+engine

My friend Gary and I set out to build 2 RV-8s about 10 years ago both of us planning to install 220HP Franklins. It was about the time when Van outfitted one of the RV-8 prototypes with a "Franklinstein". No one liked it at Van's.
We both completed the airframe at about the same time when I bailed and decided to go with an Aero Sport IO-360. Long story short, working under similar time constraints, I finished my 8 about 2 years before the Franklin powered 8 flew for the first time.
It's not that I don't like Franklin engines but you can't buy one anywhere and if you do find one you can't get any parts for it. If you do find parts somewhere there is no one left except one or 2 APs who know how to work on them.
Great project if you are in it for the experimentation but don't think you are going to save any money over a Lycoming.
My IO-360 new from Aerosport including AFP fuel injection LSE ignition and
alternator came in at just under $20000.- at the time.
My friends Franklin core was about $11000 plus Ellison TB plus LSE ignition
plus engineering and making an engine mount plus making your own exhaust
system and baffle kit, alternator and all electric fuel pump set up since no mechanical pump can be found for the 220 Franklin. You'll also have to come up with your own intake filter system as well as cowl modifications. You do the math.
His Rv-8 turned out very nice and it does have a nice rumble to it when he taxis up. On a trip to Oshkosh he recorded about 10% better fuel economy
over my IO-360 with fixed pitch Sensenich prop.
I did not build mine with a profit motive in mind, however when it came time to sell my 8 to turn it into money for the RV-10 engine purchase, it was evident that buyers were looking for anything but exotic one of a kind airplanes. For some of us, spending the money on an aircraft represents a lifetime of savings and for others.. well it's just peanuts I guess.
Bottom line, if Franklin engines were actually available for purchase I am sure more builders would consider that option and make it a tough competitor to the tried and true Lycoming. I'd like to see someone put it back into production but like many other promises on alternative engines
I wouldn't waste my time waiting for it.
 
No

No.
Notice the wording on their web page? How about price info? I am sure they are trying but you'll have to wait and see.
Inodyne turbines had a nice web page too.

We will present new 4 and 6 cylinder engines and a row of spare parts.
Click to expand...
The Franklin saga reminds me a lot about the now disappeared "Zogg diesel"
that showed up in Oshkosh for 20 plus years always just about ready for production but never had one of his engines mounted on a flying airplane.
 
I understand what you are saying

Thanks g zero and N427EF, I understand what you are both saying, and thank you for the info, but that doesn't stop Franklin being an option for an engine when the time comes. I might even buy an engine 'kit' and build my own, it all depends on things 2-3 years down the line, which is when I expect to need an engine.

Thanks for the offer of the engine g zero, but I don't have the money, (sounds a good offer).

All my spare cash will go in the Empannage, tools, compressor over the next 3-4 months.

I'm presently waiting on the tail kit, so I've not even got started yet.

If I had the money, I'd buy an 8 that was for sale, or buy the entire kit in one go and just build it, but I can't.

A lot of things can happen during my timeframe, I might win the lottery :D:D (I wish, but not likely).

The (Polish? )company allegedly producing Franklins might disolve into thin air, or, they might prosper and do very well.

Anything might happen. All I am saying is that at this moment I consider them a viable option. What about a diesel? What about a radial? With the right radial, the 8 would look even better than it does.
 
At least the Franklin is/was an engine designed from the get-go for aircraft and not one converted from the automotive world with a way different mission, and for which we have been waiting a long time for viability.

It would be great if we had another option besides Lyco and their ability to ramp up prices at will. Continental... where are you guys anyway?

BTW, an A/P friend of mine tells me that if you must have a Franklin, then a "Heavy Case" model is the way to go...

.
 
...The (Polish? )company allegedly producing Franklins might disolve into thin air, or, they might prosper and do very well...
Click to expand...

This company (PZL) has been building engines as long as Lycoming. And they have been building Franklins for decades. They also build the 1000 HP P&W radial copy that's hanging on the front of all those AN-2 and iron curtain Ag aircraft. The track record of PZL sure appears solid.


I will comment that some of the posts in this thread sure punctuate the difference between "homebuilders" and "kit assemblers". We're talking about an air cooled aircraft engine of approximately the same weight and size of the familiar Lycoming - who cares if you have to build a mount, some brackets and do a little bit of fiberglass work? People have been swapping engines as long as aircraft have been flying. I find it amusing that some of you consider it a major engineering challenge if you can't unwrap the powder coated part from the blister pack and bolt it directly on the airframe.
 
As far as I am aware PZL, make good engines, I didn't catch the name of the company.

It does seem that I'm getting a little flak, just because I'm not a hard and fast Lycoming fan. Checking out Continental, their engines of comparable power, are 6 cyl's with what looks like the same engine mounting arrangement of the Franklin.

Before anyone sets me alight, I did not check prices, just searched for what they had to offer.

Now. If money was no problem, and I could afford the engine and it's fuel burn, and I was in fantasyland, it would have to be a RR Merlin 60 series, what fun!!

Now where is that elliptical wing?

In fact if I had the money, there is a guy in AZ (I think) that has a full size Spitire IX kit in wood, certified and stressed for a standard Allison(yawn), initial climb is something like 6k ft a minute, and it out performs a standard Spitfire IX.

Now if I had the time, money and space. That’s what I’d be building.
 
This thread is not about whether or not the Franklin is a good engine for an RV
and even much less about PZL being a reliable Company.
PZL produces among other things PW PT6' as well as myriad of engine and aircraft components. Like I said, my friend turned out a very nice RV-8 with a 220hp Franklin and the engine seems every bit as good as a comparable Lycoming. I also submit that the cost was about equal to a Lycoming installation in addition to 2 years of extra work that went into building the firewall forward components not to mention the market value of an RV with a Franklin engine.
I challenge any of you to call someone on that Franklin web site and tell me how much and when I can get one these Franklin engines.
I am not bashing the engine or anyone considering installing one of these, just saying you can't get one here in the US.
 
N427EF said:
I challenge any of you to call someone on that Franklin web site and tell me how much and when I can get one these Franklin engines.
I am not bashing the engine or anyone considering installing one of these, just saying you can't get one here in the US.
Click to expand...

I guess, if I decide to go the Franklin route in a few years time I'll be able to answer your question Ernst.
 
I have a carbed Franklin 4 cylinder in my 1941 Cub. A fine engine but parts availability is a total bitch.

The Franklin Engine guys in Texas are selling 6 cylinder fuel injected experimantal engines from PZL.

I get all my 4 cylinder parts from them and they are real straight shooters. Susan is the person to talk to down there, great lady.

I have an RV-8 in slow-mo construction and I plan to power with a Franklin. Yep, it's not a Lyco-saurus, but it aint no small block chevy or other reduction drive engine either.

They had 4 engines on display at KOSH, looked for all the world like a small continental.

PZL announced at KOSH that they are moving from Polnd to Ft Lauderdale in the next 6 months or so. They want to enter the "American built" market.
 
EFG said:
The Franklin Engine guys in Texas are selling 6 cylinder fuel injected experimantal engines from PZL.

I get all my 4 cylinder parts from them and they are real straight shooters. Susan is the person to talk to down there, great lady.
Click to expand...

Ed do you have any contact details, URL? phone number?

EFG said:
PZL announced at KOSH that they are moving from Polnd to Ft Lauderdale in the next 6 months or so. They want to enter the "American built" market.
Click to expand...

That would make sense, because here in the U.S. is where the market(the money) is, compared to say Europe.
 
2bolts said:
...That would make sense, because here in the U.S. is where the market(the money) is, compared to say Europe...
Click to expand...

Well, sort of. If you're talking about capturing the E-AB market, then yes. But keep in mind that PZL (along with Rotax and Vedeneyev) is the Lycoming/Continental of Europe. These Franklin clones have been powering the European GA aircraft for a long time.
 
You are not alone

JT,
Your buddy is not alone. David Brand built a very nice RV-8 with a 220 HP Franklin engine a number of years ago. I've got some photos of his plane [when it was still a project] Very nice workmanship and some nice ideas. Do a search on his name on the Yahoo RV-8 list for more info about his build.
Charlie
PS Your friend should wait to install the wings when running the engine. The wings act as a damper to prevent damage to the fuselage.
 
I have a RV8-Franklin 220 flying

I built that sister ship 427EF was mentioning. It runs very nicely and I'm completely happy with my decision so far. Yes it was a bit more work and I had to learn how to work a CAD system and weld stainless steel to make the exhaust, but it was all good.

My engine was built by PZL, however this is not the company that was at KOSH and holds the type cert now. The "Franklin-Engines" company from Poland bought the rights from PZL when Pratt and Whitney bought part of PZL and subsequently closed down the piston engine manufacturing plant for use as a turbine facility. The deal went down maybe 7-8 years ago and I'm pleased to see that Roman Sadowski (CEO) has made some progress with his company since then. Also -- They are not to be confused with April and Susan from Texas. Susan Prall bought her business from George Heinley and was mostly selling NOS, however she has new PMA parts such as rings, valves and possibly now cranks as well.

As far as cost of the engine is concerned, year 2000 I paid 10.5k for the engine plus 2K for for the Ellison TB and governor. I bought the engine without accessories since I wanted to use state of the art (lightweight alternator and starter and a Lightspeed ignition. I understand that Roman is now selling the engine complete with accessories, the price no doubt has gone down, looking at the decay of the US dollar over the last 12 years.

Over all I have no complaints or regrets with the F220, now at 300hrs.

Has anybody heard of David Brand lately?? I tried to contact him a couple of times and got no response...

gary S








chaskuss said:
JT,
Your buddy is not alone. David Brand built a very nice RV-8 with a 220 HP Franklin engine a number of years ago. I've got some photos of his plane [when it was still a project] Very nice workmanship and some nice ideas. Do a search on his name on the Yahoo RV-8 list for more info about his build.
Charlie
PS Your friend should wait to install the wings when running the engine. The wings act as a damper to prevent damage to the fuselage.
Click to expand...
 
One way to test its metal

What is the displacement? As we all know this talk and subjective rationalization can go on forever without any clear performance measure. There are three classes of cross country air racing for RVs that your friend could enter that might help in several ways. Check www.sportairrace.org.

RV Red 320 cu. in. or less
RV Blue 360 cu. in. or less
RV Gold 390 cu. in. or less (540 for RV-10s)

Horsepower is not limited. If it is competitive with the others in its class it would become very popular.



Bob Axsom
 
Franklin engine

I was fortunate enough to get to fly Van's Franklin powered RV-8. The performance seemed quite good. As I remember, it did not seem as smooth as the Stinson and Bellanca.

__________________
Jim Winings
2000 hrs. RV-4
900 hrs. F-1 Rocket
 
Franklin 220

The engine is 350 cubic inches. They were used in new Maules and before
That as helicopter engines.
RV9A Bill
 
It would be in the RV Blue Class in SARL

If that 220 stands for 220 horsepower it should do quite well with the mostly 180s in the RV Blue class.

Bob Axsom
 
220 isch

The 220 indeed stands for 220 hp. PZL clarified that as 205hp continuous / 205+10% for 10 minutes, which comes out to 225 and is probably a bit optimistic like always. The engine I have was test run on the dyno at PZL and the max HP recorded was 215hp then. 350Ci and 10.5:1 compression ratio.

I'm running with a single Lightspeed ignition and was told that i could get a small power boost if I had two of those..... I think I pass as in the RV8 I have enough power with what I have.

gary
 
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