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RV-15 Dreamin' When Nature Calls ...and my dream options.

DeltaRomeo

doug reeves: unfluencer
Staff member
I may or may not have landed in a fresh cut field Tuesday morning to visit nature's powder room. File under 'Things you'll be able to do in the RV-15 that my RV-6 won't!'

I'm really looking forward to the RV-15. The heat index here in DFW was 109.4*F yesterday.

Van's said they were looking for input. Mine:

- Manual flaps option
- Windows that open in flight (and stay open)
- Doors that can be removed (or replaced with a mod'd vent version during summer)
- Optional bolt on slats
- RV-14 Fowler-ish flaps

Did I mention I was looking forward to the RV-15? <g>

v/r,dr​


IMG_3862-X4.jpg
 
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No struts! Make the cabin deep enough that a RV type spar can be used in the cabin.
Skylights and large windows also desirable.
RV14 type gear legs with larger wheel options
RV10 type luggage door
RV14/RV10 wing and flap system
RV14 tail

Forget the nose wheel option, it will just embarrass the owner.
 
I currently have a deposit on an RV-8 I wonder if they'll let me switch? Definitely hoping for manual flaps, 4 cyl Lycoming type, decent cruise w/ STOL which I am sure Vans can pull off.
 
I like Doug's suggestions. My wish list would include those plus ShockMonster type gear and wing struts (to strap stuff to). Gotta be able to carry a OneWheel and/or Mountain Bike outside the cabin.

I like the idea of a small 4-place. 2 aft-facing kids seats or the like.

Hey Van's: Take my money! I want to get in line now!
 
I like Doug's ideas, except make the slats automatically retract and extend like the Pegazair.

i-sxjdnCb-X3.jpg


Under a certain speed they pop out and over that speed they retract, automagically :) I believe its similar to a spring loaded system. I may be wrong but I think this is like a Chris Heinz design done long ago. Reading below it may even be older than that!

This is a Peg in Chapter 691 built by Will Fox. Picture credits to Will.

I fell in love with this unique version of Will's Peg although the slats are the factory design. To keep it RV related, Will did all the EAA inspections on our RV-12 build and has done many other RV's and other aircraft as well. Notice the hand bent tungsten landing gear! An engineer and a craftsman all in one. Also note a modified RV-8 cowl...

I bought plans to the Peg (and many others - even Glastar kit #500) but in the end realized that I loved working with the metal Van's models. The well thought out process they give you to create a safe, fun, fast beautiful machine can't be beat. I'm proudly more of an assembler than a plans builder. It's ok to beat on your chest about that, we all have those things that we cherish and love doing. In the end it's probably safer that I do assembly rather than design! Computers, rivets and Jazz are my thing.

Bob
 
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"like Doug's ideas except make the slats automatically retract and extend like the Pegazair."

Like the DH-82 Tiger Moth.
 
Plenty of access panels to inspect and service controls, pumps, filters and so on without having to contort yourself into tiny spaces, remove internal panels or floors or generally suffer pain to complete maintainance tasks.

Actually this would be good for all models.
 
Folding wing option, maybe ?

This is actually one of the hot topics of debate in discussing future plans for the Glasair Sportsman - to keep the folding wings or ditch them. Those who have used them, often in potentially dire circumstances, believe they are a critical part of the design. Those who have never used them believe the feature is excess "fluff".

Given the kind of weather which narrowly missed KOSH last night, having the ability to fold wings and get the airplane into what may be limited hangar space to avoid hail or other damage makes folding wings a real winner for me. Plus many builders say they would not have been able to build in reduced-size workshops had it not been for the folding wings.

As for the strut, if placed like it is on the Sportsman it truly isn't an issue and one appreciates having an extra place for helping hands to push the airplane over rough ground. And believe me, we all want the RV15 to be capable of operating in and around rough ground!

As for manual flaps, one of the complaints against the GlaStar was its fairly high flap deployment forces. I've never found it to be a problem because I've never tried to deploy them at Vfe - it's easy to get the airplane slowed down another few knots, then deploy the flaps. The Sportsman flaps are of a different design than those of the GlaStar. They feature a 90kt Vfe versus 80kts on the GlaStar. At any speed below 90kts they deploy easily - I normally just use two fingers under the johnson bar. I mention this difference because getting flap design correct is critical to pilot perception of flap performance.

Oh, I should mention that manual flaps are a key element of one of the best features of the GlaStar/Sportsman. For a short field takeoff one can leave the flaps fully up, wind up the engine, release brakes and keep the airplane in a low drag configuration. As soon as we see 40kts roll by on the ASI, grab the johnson bar and yank it all the way up, deploying full flaps. The airplane comes off the ground and climbs nearly flat, like a helicopter hover-up. Now milk the flaps up as forward speed is gained. The degree of control available through johnson-bar-actuated flaps is a real performance differentiator in back-country operations.
 
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Here's my wish list:

- Struts with brackets that support accessories (mountain bikes / cargo pods / removable fuel tanks) - (1 per side)
- Folding wing (no hangars here in PHX and too expensive to buy)
- Long range tanks (50+ gal)
- Removable doors
- Dual brake caliper option for max braking
- Cargo access door (think Sportman 2+2 style)
- 27.5" tire compatibility
- 130kt TAS with t/o roll <600ft
- 48-50" wide cabin side-by-side (wife will next fly behind me)

Basically my custom Zenith but with Vans precision and speed. :D
 
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My RV9A can do mild bush stuff on wheels. What I would like to have in a 15 are skis and floats options. ... And pulled rivets :)
 
Sportsman 2+2 features...

Canadian Joy hit on some of the major strong points of the Glasair Sportsman 2+2. The wing strut behind the front doors is good for giving something to grab and having the strut behind the door makes getting in and out of the aircraft easy. Plus on float planes, you usually have to stop the engine, jump out on the float, and run to the front of the float to catch the plane from hitting the dock. Yeah, there's more aerodynamic drag with wing struts. But you usually end up with a lighter aircraft and no "carry thru" spar in the cockpit.

Another strong point on the Sportsman is the ability to switch between a tricycle, tailwheel, or float landing gear. The Sportsman allows you to do that relatively easily. The comment about "popping" the manual flaps is a good one. This technique is also used for float flying.

As far as a TW version, I would seriously recommend the T3 tailwheel as an option for the RV-15. Once you've flown with a T3 tailwheel, you'll never want to go back to the standard TW.

As far as a cargo door is concerned, one thing I don't like about the Sportsman "cargo" door is you can't open it with the flaps down. The door interferes with the flap trailing edge. This can be a concern with landing on water since you usually land with full flaps and if you have a mishap on landing, the person in the back seat might not be able to exit the aircraft. And as far as the size of the cargo door, the bigger the better. Look at the cargo door they have on Maules and Bearhawks. Yeah baby!!! :)

I also second the comment about large, removable inspection panels. It makes maintenance SO much easier!! I also agree with the comment about extra long-range fuel tanks. With extra fuel capacity, you have the option of either lots of fuel or lots of cargo. Your choice. The tip tanks on the Sportsman are nice since they are used to fill the main tanks. There's no problem pumping the tip tanks "dry" since they don't directly feed the engine. One more thing to note here. The Sportsman has small "header" tanks in it. This is to make sure you don't starve the engine of fuel if you're doing a hard slip on landing with low tanks. Yeah, it has a "Both" feature on the tanks, but the header tanks make sure you have some fuel if you end up uncovering a fuel pickup on landing.

And on a completely different note, maybe after Van's introduces the RV-15 they could get into the kit "float" business. Aluminum float design would be an natural for Vans since the design of aluminum floats is very similar to that of aircraft designs.

I hope this helps.

Jeff
 
An all-metal tandem high-wing with aerobatic capability and faster cruise than a decathlon would really excite my wife. Can't count the number of times she's inquired about "can we buy a citabria?"

I think there's a serious hole in the market for an aerobatic capable light-sport, but the timing doesn't work out for LSA development with MOSAIC scheduled for 2023.
 
I love the idea of a wide cabin (48" - 50"). I'd gladly trade top-end cruise for that. Also, the sturts lower mounting point behind the front door.

Bob
 
I understand the benefits of the strut behind the door. However, my non-RV has the strut in front of the door and that does a decent job of blocking the prop.

Something to consider.

Dave
 
Adjustable Ergonomic Seating and BRS Compatible

#1 Adjustable Seats ( Standard or as an Option )

With more women pilots, instructors at flight schools, etc. let’s make sure the RV-15 fits them as well. This is an opportunity for Vans Aircraft to design the new RV-15 with broadly flexible seating ergonomics. Shorter stature women need to be accommodated with seats that allow say a 5+ foot tall person to fly as easily as a person who is 6 ½ feet tall.


#2 Option for later adding a Ballistic Recovery System


If the fuselage could be designed so that future retrofits for a BRS system could be accommodated, that would also be a huge selling point. So the suggestion here is to simply make the RV-15 BRS retrofit capable. This might simply be an option to later install this optional BRS system itself so to speak. In other words, extra bracing and a BRS compatible top fuselage cover might be what constitute the BRS retrofit option.

Choosing the retrofit option does not mean you are buying or getting ready to install the actual BRS system itself. You are basically just future proofing the RV-15 . Kind of like outfitting a plane to make it float capable.
 
Lycoming 4 cylinder (no Rotax)

170 knots cruise. No wing struts, RV-14 style wing, with some Fowler or even double Fowler flaps like they have on the Javeron Cub. I don’t see Vans being too excited about people hanging external loads off the plane, with the chance of flutter or even having something come loose and taking out the tail.

Since Vans haven’t ever done a bush style shock monster equipped gear, I would like the airfoiled leaf gear, like the Grove gear on the -8, however, the one piece that don’t rely on the gear boxes. Not a fan of the round gear legs on the engine mount for rough fields.

I prefer solid, flush rivets, as opposed to pulled rivets.
 
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Well

I built my last RV before the 12 came out, so pulled rivets weren't an option. I'm not even a fan of pulled rivets, but the reality is making something that easy to build attracts more customers. I would think in an effort to attract more first time builders, Van's would go this way, but maybe not. For us "driven rivet" people, there isn't anything stopping us from doing it anyway, aside from a little more work.

I'd put my 2 cents in for other **** but I'd imagine Van's probably already have an idea on what they are going to do, so keeping it simple, Make it go fast, and make it go slow 35-40 mph would be my target.

-A window that can stay open in flight
-removable doors
-option to fly without the doors
-huge baggage door (think bearhawkish)
-EASE OF MAINTANCE (put panels in place to make things easy to get at)
-build the cowl so you can take off a side piece and get to the underside of
the engine, think Cessna T182 (I'd build it this way anyway but it would be
nice to have it done)
-plan for ductwork to get to the back seat (not that I care about people in
the back, if I really did they would have made the front seat, but I'm tired of
listening to them b876hing, so lets shut them up and provide a little magical
eyeball vent with heat so we can say "thats yours, shut up"
-tail pull as an option
-manual flaps
-give it space so tall people can fit, I'm 6'6" only built an 8 because it was
the only one I fit in at the time
-its needs more power than a rotax, so 4 or 6 cylinder lycoming please
-don't sacrifice ANYTHING for making it aerobatic, if it is then great
-straight tail (think Skywagon)
-option for wing extension's (this should be relatively easy to do)
-when built simple, make it be able to carry it's own weight
-put big fuel tanks in, 50 gal. for 4 cylinder engine, 75 gal. for 6

Make it feel like an RV (I know I didn't have to include that)
 
Old People and Those Who Don't Exercise

I'm pretty flexible for an old fart, but I still got on Kruger's case for needing the agility of a contortionist for getting your leg around the tall Vashon stick. Van's will get the performance right, but I hope include a huge consideration for the human factors interface with the airframe that makes it fun or drudgery to use. I can envision a swing-away or removable stick with all manner of interlocks, much like the -12's wing, or a center stick, or - wait for it! - a wheel! Limited joint motion, especially knees, are the usual problem. It's a laugh riot watching even young people struggle to exit my -7.

Make the door opening BIG, with its forward edge and the seat vamp really gappy. Ever notice all the Cessna heater vents mangled by size 10 feet squeezing between the size 3 seat-to-door-frame gap?

A strut is no bother for entry/exit if it is behind the door, and/or the door is sufficiently large and opens 90 or more degrees.

Please no swing wing: Complication, weight, expense, very thin market. (In 52 years of flying, I've never seen someone towing their aircraft, 'cept gliders, and know several instances of abandoning the commute.)

I'm hoping for a people friendly -15.

John Siebold
 
170 knots cruise. No wing struts, RV-14 style wing, with some Fowler or even double Fowler flaps like they have on the Javeron Cub. I don’t see Vans being too excited about people hanging external loads off the plane, with the chance of flutter or even having something come loose and taking out the tail


170kt (195mph) cruise and external loads probably aren't compatible. The fastest plane I have seen with external loads would be about 120mph. Then, of course, the drag of the item slows that down significantly. Turbo Otter would do 120 clean, and 90-100mph depending on the item. Even fishing poles tied to the float struts of a 180 slowed it down about 10mph.
 
Hi to any Van's folks reading this... I imagine you have the fundamental design details frozen already, but here are a few minor quality-of-life features I'd love to see:

1. Ability to look into the fuel tank while filling it. Many flight-school Cessnas have a series of steps and grab handles that let you climb the wing strut to peer into the tank, but not every high-wing airplane has such conveniences. I'll leave the specific details up to the designers - I just want to be able to pump gas without needing to find a stepladder.

2. The leading edge and bottom of the horizontal stabilizer will inevitably get hit by rocks when operating off-airport. It would be nice if the HS skins were beefed up to handle this, and/or designed to be repaired/replaced easily. I'll leave the details up to the designer on this one too.

3. Some kind of ground-handling handle so you can move the plane around while parked, without pushing on the tail or using a towbar. Actually I wish all taildraggers had this, but for an aircraft that's "backcountry capable" this seems especially useful.
 
I'm pretty flexible for an old fart, but I still got on Kruger's case for needing the agility of a contortionist for getting your leg around the tall Vashon stick. Van's will get the performance right, but I hope include a huge consideration for the human factors interface with the airframe that makes it fun or drudgery to use. I can envision a swing-away or removable stick with all manner of interlocks, much like the -12's wing, or a center stick, or - wait for it! - a wheel! Limited joint motion, especially knees, are the usual problem. It's a laugh riot watching even young people struggle to exit my -7.


John Siebold

Again, I never thought I'd say this, but experience (however small) is a plus over no experience.

My friends Peg has a Y stick in the middle. Before I got in, I thought why would you do something like that? Real airplanes should have two sticks! Well, not really...

The fact is, that it's really easy to get in and out. Plus when you're flying you never notice the difference. Amazing what you can learn when you have the chance. Throttle on both sides of the panel.

Bob
 
Hi to any Van's folks reading this... I imagine you have the fundamental design details frozen already, but here are a few minor quality-of-life features I'd love to see:

3. Some kind of ground-handling handle so you can move the plane around while parked, without pushing on the tail or using a towbar. Actually I wish all taildraggers had this, but for an aircraft that's "backcountry capable" this seems especially useful.

Like these?
https://basinc-aeromod.com/tail_pull_handles.php
 
Jumping on some other suggestions here...

- Grab handle would definitely be nice and probably not killer to add (at least as an option).
- Skylights would be very cool, probably would have to be an option though as you'd probably need extra bracing around them to compensate for the lack of skin there.
- Having a large-ish rear door and removable smaller rear-facing seats might work well, you could have a 4-seater (2 adults, 2 kids realistically) with not much cargo room, or remove the seats and have a large cargo area with a large door.
 
Prototype RV15. Cessna 175

My $1.20. Inflation,,,,

The Cessna 175 with the GO-300 175 hp. Could have been ,, is,, the perfect prototype for the RV15.
Now the improvements
Lycoming engine, 4 cylinder
change to sticks
Large baggage door
Extended baggage.
60 gallon gas.
Tail wheel.

Simple
 
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My $1.20. Inflation,,,,

The Cessna 175 with the GO-300 175 hp. Could have been ,, is,, the perfect prototype for the RV15.
Now the improvements
Lycoming engine, 4 cylinder
change to sticks
Large baggage door
Extended baggage.
60 gallon gas.
Tail wheel.

Simple

Couldn't you do the same with the 172 Skyhawk? If I'm not mistaken, the older 172s built back in the 175 era are almost identical firewall aft, and include the same fastback fuselage. Some 172 models share the same type certificate with the 175 due to the similarities.

If Vans were to copy a Cessna model, I would prefer they copy the 182 due to the larger cabin. Two big guys rub shoulders in a 172, which gets old on the long slow flights in that airplane. If Vans caters to the low and slow crowd, I hope they make the RV-15 roomy to make the long flights more comfortable.
 
175/ 172.

The 1958/ 1959 C175 has a stepped out, on the bottom, firewall, The 172 firewall is flat . That is not important in my argument.

Van’s can’t just copy Cessna, can they? Or maybe,, they can? Cub Crafters makes Carbon Cubs & Top Cubs. Looks real similar to a Piper Super Cub to me.

I think the square tail 100 series Cessna are the best looking.
Hope Van’s copies the Cessna 175.
Incorporates my Ideas in the RV15 design.
And it can Cruse 130 knots,,,, or more!
 
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Hey, wait just a minute... : )
 

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