I have been told that some DAR?s prefer Black cable ties or White cable ties because the black ties hold up better to UV light. I do see that Van?s use both black and white. (IE. White cable ties included in the light kit) I plan to use only black cable ties, but I would look for feedback on this subject.
Van's Air Force
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Cable Ties Black vs White
- Thread starter jsenft
- Start date
Old tales from times gone by. One can buy both black or white in the UV resistant materials. You can also buy black or white in non-uv resistant.
So what you really need to look at is the specs for the ones you are buying- in UV resistance, temp range and strength.
You don't have to get Mil standard ones to be good, but if you do get mil standard ones at least you can readily identify the properties.
Dan
So what you really need to look at is the specs for the ones you are buying- in UV resistance, temp range and strength.
You don't have to get Mil standard ones to be good, but if you do get mil standard ones at least you can readily identify the properties.
Dan
Where would you use cable ties where they're exposed to UV? The only place I use them is to tie off wires inside the fuse where they're hidden. Just curious!
I have run into some inspectors that still prescribe to the thought that somehow black ties are better. Even had one looking for the type of tie that has a metal finger that secures the tie, instead of plastic. However the specs for the mil type tell the story on the breaking strength and the resistance to the elements and aging.
I have used white for years, rarely ever seen black in a certified airplane.
Dan
I have used white for years, rarely ever seen black in a certified airplane.
Dan
Greg Arehart
Well Known Member
I could see no particular rationale for a DAR to quibble over the color or brand of your zip ties. If s/he did, I might look for a new DAR. I would rather have that inspector looking for something that is a real airworthiness issue (size, maybe).
Greg
Greg
bkc3921
Well Known Member
Split the difference..Go blue!
A little away from your question, but I used the Blue Tefzel cable ties (available from Stein) FWF. Yes, they are a little pricy, but I liked the high temperature rating, resistance to chemicals, and excellent flammability rating. Will it make a difference..??..I hope not..but I sleep well at night.
Regardless of your choice, I highly suggest you get a cable tie gun. It makes the installation very professional looking, and there is nothing worse than sticking you hand into the FWF area, and getting cut by a left-over sharp nylon zip tie edge. Also, I was advised not to use a cable tie to secure anything to the engine mount, as it can actually reduce the integrity of the mount in certain circumstances. Behind the panel, I used waxed lacing cord and tied it..looks good and works well. YMMV. Take care.
A little away from your question, but I used the Blue Tefzel cable ties (available from Stein) FWF. Yes, they are a little pricy, but I liked the high temperature rating, resistance to chemicals, and excellent flammability rating. Will it make a difference..??..I hope not..but I sleep well at night.
Regardless of your choice, I highly suggest you get a cable tie gun. It makes the installation very professional looking, and there is nothing worse than sticking you hand into the FWF area, and getting cut by a left-over sharp nylon zip tie edge. Also, I was advised not to use a cable tie to secure anything to the engine mount, as it can actually reduce the integrity of the mount in certain circumstances. Behind the panel, I used waxed lacing cord and tied it..looks good and works well. YMMV. Take care.
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Aiki_Aviator
Well Known Member
Engine mount integrity?
Hi,
I am curious as to the comment:
"Also, I was advised not to use a cable tie to secure anything to the engine mount, as it can actually reduce the integrity of the mount in certain circumstances."
How is this possible. I don't understand how this could be the case. I am not trying to be silly here because we mount Adel clamps here and they would no doubt have to cause the same issues.
Are you able to provide a reasoning for this statement?
Thanks in advance.
Hi,
I am curious as to the comment:
"Also, I was advised not to use a cable tie to secure anything to the engine mount, as it can actually reduce the integrity of the mount in certain circumstances."
How is this possible. I don't understand how this could be the case. I am not trying to be silly here because we mount Adel clamps here and they would no doubt have to cause the same issues.
Are you able to provide a reasoning for this statement?
Thanks in advance.
Dgamble
Well Known Member
Paul K
Well Known Member
I used a system of colors to signify the progress of completing each area.
Lacing cord behind the panel
Blue Tefzel ties FWF
Black zip ties are final
Bright colors are temporary
If I see a bright colored tie, I know it is temporary and needs to be finished. If I see black, I know everything in that area is complete. A quick scan is all it took to make sure everything is secure and complete.
Note: I found that the blue Tefzel ties are not as strong as the others and care needs to be taken when setting them and a test pull is necessary to verify their security when done.
Lacing cord behind the panel
Blue Tefzel ties FWF
Black zip ties are final
Bright colors are temporary
If I see a bright colored tie, I know it is temporary and needs to be finished. If I see black, I know everything in that area is complete. A quick scan is all it took to make sure everything is secure and complete.
Note: I found that the blue Tefzel ties are not as strong as the others and care needs to be taken when setting them and a test pull is necessary to verify their security when done.
There may be certain circumstances involving this, but I've been inspecting aircraft for about 45 years and have never seen it.
I recently removed a number of zip ties from my own engine mount that had been on there for over 20 years and there was no indication of wear at all.
I recently removed a number of zip ties from my own engine mount that had been on there for over 20 years and there was no indication of wear at all.
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Walt
Well Known Member
Nylon tie wraps will generally loosen up over time (especially FWF), they can then chafe into the wire, engine mount, line, etc. (I've seen lots of grooves in prop gov lines and oil drain back tubes when folks tie to these). Less chance of this if the tie wraps are kept tight.
The 4130 mount is pretty tough but that nylon tie wrap can still wear a mark into it. In addition the protective finish (powder coat) wears off pretty quick then rust has a place to start. Rust pits can significantly reduce the strength of the thin walled mount (I've cleaned up many a rusted mount from this).
I use tie wraps FWF on my own aircraft, but, I always install a few wraps of silicone tape on the mount first so the tie wrap is not in direct contact with it.
The 4130 mount is pretty tough but that nylon tie wrap can still wear a mark into it. In addition the protective finish (powder coat) wears off pretty quick then rust has a place to start. Rust pits can significantly reduce the strength of the thin walled mount (I've cleaned up many a rusted mount from this).
I use tie wraps FWF on my own aircraft, but, I always install a few wraps of silicone tape on the mount first so the tie wrap is not in direct contact with it.
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bkc3921
Well Known Member
Yes, this was the discussion
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82012&highlight=cable+ties
This is a long discussion on this topic..As you can see, the jury is still out..but my theory is "why do it if you don't have to?"..It appears there are several cases where it may have caused damage, or at least created a condition that might encourage damage....something I am trying to avoid.
YMMV=Do your own research, and proceed at your own risk. This is one one the great things about being a homebuilder. We can solicit advice without necessarily have to take it!.. I chose not to place ties on my mount since there are other options available. Best wishes on your choice.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82012&highlight=cable+ties
This is a long discussion on this topic..As you can see, the jury is still out..but my theory is "why do it if you don't have to?"..It appears there are several cases where it may have caused damage, or at least created a condition that might encourage damage....something I am trying to avoid.
YMMV=Do your own research, and proceed at your own risk. This is one one the great things about being a homebuilder. We can solicit advice without necessarily have to take it!.. I chose not to place ties on my mount since there are other options available. Best wishes on your choice.
vlittle
Well Known Member
Everyone of my tefzel cable ties hardened up and broke off (probably a dozen or more FWF). Not worth the investment, I'm afraid.
bkc3921
Well Known Member
Possibly..
I have been unable to find a definitive answer on the "shelf life" of a Tefzel tie. The DuPoint Properties manual paints a rosy picture of the product....27 boring pages which convinced me I made the right choice by NOT becoming a chemical engineer..!
From what I have read, cable ties suffer the most degradation in cold, low humidity environments (like hangers!)..so they may need to be replaced from time to time. Your point is well taken, I suppose it depends on your time, budget and comfort level.
..Sorry for the slight thread drift. For what it's worth, I like black. The UV argument aside, clear/white tends to yellow and starts to look crappy.
I have been unable to find a definitive answer on the "shelf life" of a Tefzel tie. The DuPoint Properties manual paints a rosy picture of the product....27 boring pages which convinced me I made the right choice by NOT becoming a chemical engineer..!
From what I have read, cable ties suffer the most degradation in cold, low humidity environments (like hangers!)..so they may need to be replaced from time to time. Your point is well taken, I suppose it depends on your time, budget and comfort level.
..Sorry for the slight thread drift. For what it's worth, I like black. The UV argument aside, clear/white tends to yellow and starts to look crappy.
One might argue that's a good thing. That yellowing is a good visual indication that the material is degrading, and maybe ought to be replaced. Having materials that change their appearance some time before they fail is a highly desirable property!
It seems likely that the nylon material of black zip ties experience similar degradation over time, except you simply can't see a color change because it's obscured by the black die that's added to the nylon.
The other thing to remember.... I can't think of any cable ties in any of my airplanes that are "critical" to safe flight - nothing that, if it failed, it would bring me out of the sky. Check them when you do maintenance, touch and pull on them annually, and you'll be fine - regardless of the color, or material.
I personally use black (when I use ties) to finish the airplane, and I carry orange, red, or even pink ones in my "away" tool kit. If I do work on the road, it gets a colorful tie, so that reminds me to check that item once I get back to the shop.
I personally use black (when I use ties) to finish the airplane, and I carry orange, red, or even pink ones in my "away" tool kit. If I do work on the road, it gets a colorful tie, so that reminds me to check that item once I get back to the shop.
DougJ
Well Known Member
That is a GREAT idea. Simple, easy and inpossible to forget what you were going to look at later!
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Guess I've used about every color zip tie there is. I buy whatever bundle is available in the auto parts store or big box store whenever I think about it.
As Paul mentioned, nothing is going to fall off my plane if a tie fails, just might not look as neat. But in flying the RV-6 for 14 years, I don't recall ever having a zip tie break. There are still many original ties in service FWF and behind the panel. If something needs to be secured to keep it off the exhaust, it gets adel clamps.
In my opinion, making sure nothing gets damaged by a tie is much more important than color.
As Paul mentioned, nothing is going to fall off my plane if a tie fails, just might not look as neat. But in flying the RV-6 for 14 years, I don't recall ever having a zip tie break. There are still many original ties in service FWF and behind the panel. If something needs to be secured to keep it off the exhaust, it gets adel clamps.
In my opinion, making sure nothing gets damaged by a tie is much more important than color.
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DonFromTX
Well Known Member
Speaking of Adel clamps, I have been unable to find any that are fuel resistant. Do they exist?
Guess I've used about every color zip tie there is. I buy whatever bundle is available in the auto parts store or big box store whenever I think about it.
As Paul mentioned, nothing is going to fall off my plane if a tie fails, just might not look as neat. But in flying the RV-6 for 14 years, I don't recall ever having a zip tie break. There are still many original ties in service FWF and behind the panel. If something needs to be secured to keep it off the exhaust, it gets adel clamps.
In my opinion, making sure nothing gets damaged by a tie is much more important than color.
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
When two materials rub against each other the softer of the two is the one that erodes, so it is difficult to accept the wear was caused by the tie. However, what ever was held in contact (steel braid, bracket, etc.) may have worn through the engine mount tube.
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Where on our planes is an adel clamp routinely exposed to fuel? Like the nylon ties, I've never had an adel clamp cushion deteriorate, but I try to keep the engine compartment as free of fluids as possible.
Not necessarily!
Many times the harder material will wear without any noticeable wear to the softer material.
Many times the harder material will wear without any noticeable wear to the softer material.
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
Mel,
That's surprising. Can you give a personal example?
Rich
That's surprising. Can you give a personal example?
Rich
Walt
Well Known Member
Not surprising at all...
I'm not Mel but I can tell you without a doubt, I've seen plenty of structure, aluminum lines, stainless steel lines and steel mounts worn from loose tie wraps. I'm not talking a little wear either, I'm talking worn completely through the line or nearly so.
I can almost guarantee you if you go out and look at your airplane right now where the lower baffle retainer rods (the ones that the plans have you cover with plastic tube) that run under the oil drain back lines you will find that the plastic tube has worn a nice wear spot into your aluminum drain line. I have to install chafe protection on these lines on practically every RV I inspect and I've had to replace a number of tubes that were worn more than half way through. I've also seen numerous stainless prop gov lines worn from loose tie wraps (maybe this is why the AD on this line says its not acceptable to attach anything to this line).
PS: Above was written based on Lycoming, not Rotax
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RFSchaller
Well Known Member
Walt,
I'm not familiar with the configuration you describe. I've seen shiny spots where the oxide layer has been worn away, but never experienced any loss of base metal. Are you sure the wear wasn't due to the part-to-part contact as opposed to the tie-to-part contact?
Rich
I'm not familiar with the configuration you describe. I've seen shiny spots where the oxide layer has been worn away, but never experienced any loss of base metal. Are you sure the wear wasn't due to the part-to-part contact as opposed to the tie-to-part contact?
Rich
scsmith
Well Known Member
cable ties and wear on metal parts
The working hypothesis is that dirt or grit of some kind gets into the gap between the cable tie and the metal part. With vibration, the grit embeds itself into the soft material, and that combination acts like an abrasive tool that will slowly cut through steel.
I have a stainless steel bicycle water bottle cage that was filed all the way through by a water bottle over a period of 5 years. Its the grime between the plastic and the metal that does the damage.
The working hypothesis is that dirt or grit of some kind gets into the gap between the cable tie and the metal part. With vibration, the grit embeds itself into the soft material, and that combination acts like an abrasive tool that will slowly cut through steel.
I have a stainless steel bicycle water bottle cage that was filed all the way through by a water bottle over a period of 5 years. Its the grime between the plastic and the metal that does the damage.
scsmith
Well Known Member
Adel clamps
Adel clamps are made in a wide variety of cushion materials, with various chemical resistances. That's why they are color coded, black, black with red stripe, black with yellow stripe, solid yellow, solid white, probably many other colors. Each color means something, and if you note the MS numbers are different, and the MS specification will tell you about the chemical resistance, temperature resistance, etc.
Adel clamps are made in a wide variety of cushion materials, with various chemical resistances. That's why they are color coded, black, black with red stripe, black with yellow stripe, solid yellow, solid white, probably many other colors. Each color means something, and if you note the MS numbers are different, and the MS specification will tell you about the chemical resistance, temperature resistance, etc.
TomVal
Well Known Member
Cable Tie Wrap Cutters
I removed the tie wraps and adel clamped the majority of my FWF wiring on my recently purchased RV-12.
FWIW, for those who prefer to use tie wraps, there is a useful tool used for installing cable tie wraps. The cable tie wrap cutters have adjustable tension and will cleanly snip the end of the tie wrap so that you won't scrape your hands when working around tie wrapped wire bundles.
I purchased a good quality cutter on e-bay several years ago. Below is a link to a company that sells a variety of cutters.
http://www.cableorganizer.com/cable-tie-guns/
Regards,
I removed the tie wraps and adel clamped the majority of my FWF wiring on my recently purchased RV-12.
FWIW, for those who prefer to use tie wraps, there is a useful tool used for installing cable tie wraps. The cable tie wrap cutters have adjustable tension and will cleanly snip the end of the tie wrap so that you won't scrape your hands when working around tie wrapped wire bundles.
I purchased a good quality cutter on e-bay several years ago. Below is a link to a company that sells a variety of cutters.
http://www.cableorganizer.com/cable-tie-guns/
Regards,
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DonFromTX
Well Known Member
I have two fuel filters that I wanted to clamp to the firewall with Adel clamps, and started looking for fuel proof ones. No luck so far.
If your Adel clamps see fuel to the point that they deteriorate, you have much bigger problems.
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
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Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Guess if the clamps get a little gooey after a few years you could replace them?
I've had adel clamps that had long-term exposure to oil and they held up fine, not sure about fuel. But it sounds like your clamps will be easy to watch and maintain. I would attach them with plate-nuts so they will be easy to replace.
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