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Cheap 'black box' for GA possible?

O

Ola

Active Member
Just theorycrafting a little. Most modern EFIS systems are capable of recording massive amounts of parameters, at the same time data storage is so cheap and small as to be almost humorous. I just bought a 4 gig M2 memory card for my cellphone and I believe you could sneak it in someone's sandwich and they would swallow and digest it without noticing.

So a theoretical product would be very simple. A small lightweight and reasonably fireproof box behind the panel, some form of solid state storage within, inputs for USB (flight parameters from EFIS) and audio (voice from intercom) and possibly some circuitry that needn't survive a crash. It would record 1 hr loops (or 50 hrs...no problem with storage) of timestamped data and audio, so should something tragic happen the data would be there for analysis.

Exactly how hard it is to keep a piece of solid state memory alive through an impact and fire I don't know, but it shouldn't be impossible to make it survive most scenarios. Instructions for decoding would obviously be left somewhere not affected by the incident :D It would also be practical for own use...if something in particular happened during a flight the data would be available to yourself for analysis.

Since it isn't regulated in any way, any operating parameters would be up to yourself of course.

Would you use something like this if reasonably priced&sized?
 
I would not use it.

The reality is that 75% of fatal accidents are due to pilot error. They are avoidable accidents. Stop doing stupid things people.
 
Ron Lee said:
The reality is that 75% of fatal accidents are due to pilot error. They are avoidable accidents. Stop doing stupid things people.
Click to expand...

If you weren't around anymore to tell the NTSB you screwed up, the data might still be there to tell the story and lessons could be learned because of it!
 
Ola said:
Would you use something like this if reasonably priced&sized?
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Nope and I don't like it that my car has a black box in it and will allow the athorities to down load things like what I was doing at the time of the accident or that I have driven it well over 130 MPH.

How are they going to know if I've done those speeds on a race track (I have) or not?
 
Back in a former life, during the era of floppy disks, I helped promote a device that would fit into a deep office desk drawer that would protect magnetic media in a fire of 1750 degrees F for one half hour. After that time the inside temp had gone up only one degree! The media actually would stay viable for over one hour. This was made obsolete by electronically moving information off-site and several other innovations.

This used some pretty simple physics and was fairly easy to make. It had two layers, the inner layer being a phase change material. As I recall, that melted at about 100 F, absorbing heat.

Considering the probable limited time of an aircraft fire, this could be made to protect a small device and be no bigger than your fist. I have some information on how this was made, if anyone is interested. The inventor is no longer with us. I hate to admit how much he still owes me...

Bob Kelly
 
I hate the "We call all learn a lesson from this" excuse

The biggie reasons for pilots doing stupid things and dying are already known. We don't need to have more people die so that the rest of us can learn from it.

Quit running out of gas

Don't fly into IMC

Don't do low level aerobatics

Plus many more.
 
It would be valuable from a "what happened" perspective, but since the black box is not a "certified" device nor is it installed in a certified manner (much less in a certified aircraft) it could not realistically be used to pin blame or lead to enforcement actions, I would think. If you had a minor mishap and walked (or crawled) away and the FAA started asking inconvenient questions, there is no need to volunteer that you have the recorder on the aircraft if you don't want to - certainly nobody is expecting to find one. If you're dead and they are digging through the remains of the plane and find it, you don't care anymore.

Personally, yes I'd be interested in one.
 
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Not sure I would want one!

I would lean toward agreeing with the others on this post. I am not too sure I would want one even if it were free.

It is that whole BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING!! thing. Why would I invite more scrutiny from bureaucrats when I am wanting to live a life free of said bureaucrats?

As the state of Delaware's (it is Delaware isn't it?) motto states LIVE FREE OR DIE! is a motto to truly live by.

There is too much potential for government, or even commercial abuse. Imagine not being able to gain aircraft insurance because you have a little black box in your aircraft that shows you like to do aerobatics in your plane.

"Oh My God!!! Don't you know doing that stuff is dangerous. We can't insure you if you are going to do that!"​

Or perhaps the insurance company will require to see your little black box to determine how risky a flier you are.

"Oh, I see that you ran your left tank totally dry and then landed on only 1.734962 gallons in the right tank 100 flights ago. Then you did it two more times at similar levels since then. This is not acceptable!"​

I think I will pass on this idea myself.
 
hmmmmmmm

Yes it is possible, Yes they are out there, The drug runners fly them around unknowingly and the govt sees what they do and where they go... However they are not sold at Wally World......
 
RVbySDI said:
As the state of Delaware's (it is Delaware isn't it?) motto states LIVE FREE OR DIE! is a motto to truly live by.
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That would be New Hampshire, Steve...

Deleware's motto is either "Better Living Through Chemistry" or "Incorporate Cheap" or "Only Three Counties' Worth of Beaurocracy." :)
 
it is already in the works

It is called ADS-B.
It is going to cost a bit, though.
The data collection shouldn't be that big of a problem(but it will cost a few hundred million more).
With an integral battery, it won't matter if folks actually turn it on as it will probably cough up the aircraft's ID and position once queried, thus simplifying the enforcement issue.
And, computerized billing of user-fees will be a snap! Why, with automatic debit, you won't even have to lift a finger to pay those user fees.
It will be a brave new world... exciting isn't it?
 
Heh, I suppose this hit a spot I hadn't thought much of. Fair enough I suppose, general aviation seems to be trying to keep as quiet as possible lest the doers of law notice what fun they can have with the evil little flying things.

I'm not doing market research or anything, although the idea as a business did churn in my head during dinner. If the G1000s puts out data I bet all the hire/training operations would want one, but that reeks of certification.

But all that data has to be good for something. Maybe a program that analyzes captured engine data and looks for deviating trends? For instance a cylinder that is slowly running hotter than the rest or something? Continuous capture of engine data would be good for that mysterious stumble/backfire that didn't show up again. Didn't remember to press record, no prob just note the time and go back through the data and see what deviated from normal at that point.
 
Funny, I don't recall Ola saying that this device was going to transmit all your data to the Feds. Frankly, I think this kind of information to the pilot/owner of an aircraft is invaluable. The EFIS I'm looking at (MGL Voyager) will capture a lot of this information from what I understand, and I'm looking forward to using it. I also wouldn't mind having the voice recording capability for flight testing, etc.

The 1 hour loop (or however long, which I'm sure could be programmed to be as short or long as you'd like), would prevent "old" data from being revealed (like when you crossed into Mexico and landed at some dirt strip to pick up...).

Yes, I seriously value my privacy. But I'm also looking to gain more insight into every parameter of flying my aircraft. This would be a useful tool for that.
 
My GRT EFIS has happily been recording data for me for over two years, and yes - during flight testing, it is an invaluable way to collect data! You concentrate on flying rather than writing down data, and the results are far superior.

And interestingly enough, not once in 670+ hours has a Fed approached me on the ramp and asked me for my thumb drive.....(not that he'd get it without a warrant of course....).:rolleyes:
 
Reference ADS-B

The current ADS-B Out NPRM will mandate this avionics which will transmit your aircraft ID and position info when it is on. It does not have to be queried by anything. It will cost as much as $17,000 if you believe the FAA estimate and I am strongly opposed to it. Coverage is not 100% across the US...even in the east.

Comment period on it ends 3 March 2008

StopADS-B.org/ADS.htm for more info
 
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BuckWynd said:
That would be New Hampshire, Steve...

Deleware's motto is either "Better Living Through Chemistry" or "Incorporate Cheap" or "Only Three Counties' Worth of Beaurocracy." :)
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Thanks Buck. I stand corrected. I just knew Delaware did not sound right for some reason. My sincere apologies to the good citizens of both states for my misinformed error.
 
Ironflight said:
My GRT EFIS has happily been recording data for me for over two years, and yes - during flight testing, it is an invaluable way to collect data! You concentrate on flying rather than writing down data, and the results are far superior.
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That's cool! Not only do you not have to worry about how accurately you recorded the numbers, you can go back and see how accurately you flew the profile as well!

How much space does it take? It's just timestamped numbers I assume, but with many parameters and good resolution I suppose it adds up quickly.

Along with GPS data I suppose you could recreate you flights in great detail using MS flight sim and some external application. Or overwrite the thumb drive with "new" data if someone with a warrant is on the porch. :D
 
GRTDecode

Hi Ola,

http://www.rvproject.gen.nz/grt/

:) The software is pretty stable and working well (to my knowledge) although there are a couple of outstanding GPS feeds that need some work. Also the GUI type information is being worked on by myself and others which should make it more 'pretty' graphics.

It keeps track via engine and flight time and if an NMEA GPS feed is available also UTC date stamp. Engine, attitude and flight parameters are all kept. XML data out for processing in whatever way you want. Also generates Google Earth traces. MS FlightSim - been played with, but not trivual / easy.

Starting and stopping the record process is currently a manual process (GRT are hopefully investigating making it cycle). It is great for flight testing, I get about 40 mins in a single log, which is normally plenty for a test detail.

Regards,

Carl
 
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