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Old 06-29-2015, 06:56 AM
Walt's Avatar
Walt Walt is online now
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 6,004
Default FAA to limit ADS-B/FIS B (traffic) in 2016

According to the FAA website if your system does not meet the GPS perfomance parameters below then you will no longer be able to receive ADS-B services after 2016.

So for those of you on the fence about equipping with a position source meeting these minimum performance requirements (which our experimental EFIS GPS's do not) this may be some "incentive" to rethink that (bottom line is your will lose traffic services for those broadcasting with a non-certifed GPS position sources)

Quote from the FAA site:
"However, beginning on January 4, 2016, the following criteria must also be satisfied in order to receive ADS-B IN services: Broadcast ADS-B with NACp>4, NACv>0, SDA>0, SIL>0, and NIC>4."

I personally plan on asking the FAA why the restriction and how that is going to improve safety at every opportunity I have while attending Oshkosh, I suggest everyone do the same, let them know how you feel !
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)

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Last edited by Walt : 06-29-2015 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 06-29-2015, 08:19 AM
fly3g fly3g is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 44
Default ADSB-IN Weather Too?

Not clear to me from the FAA site referenced, it appears to discuss only traffic advisory but "weather" is an ADSB-In service as well, will that be cancelled as well. May help in XM weather subscriptions planning. Probably can't afford to equip on their "new" schedule yet if it cancels weather too.
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Old 06-29-2015, 08:58 AM
YellowJacket RV9 YellowJacket RV9 is offline
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Clearwater, FL KCLW
Posts: 1,317

FIS B is the weather and tfr info. TIS B is the traffic data. The website indicates that both those would be unavailable, which is pretty disappointing given that they gave us until 2020 to equip and now it appears they are punishing us for not equipping earlier than their own deadline. I don't see how they could block weather info though as that is broadcast to all.

I for one plan on waiting as I am confident prices will come down considerably before 2020. Ashame that they are taking away a bit of my situational awareness for no reason.

If somebody who is blocked from this data has a mid-air, the FAA might have some 'splaining to do...
Chris Johnson
RV-9A - Done(ish) 4/5/16! Flying 4/7/16

Last edited by YellowJacket RV9 : 06-29-2015 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 06-29-2015, 09:07 AM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
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Not much of a surprise here. Figured the free lunch would end before 2020.
Brantel (Brian Chesteen),
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Old 06-29-2015, 10:16 AM
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greghughespdx greghughespdx is offline
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Location: Aurora, OR
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Weather via ADS-B is broadcast in the blind to the whole world, and does not require ADS-B out capabilities to receive. Jan 4 date on the web page is in a section specifically addressing ADS-B traffic services ("How do I receive ADS-B In Traffic Services and what do I see today?"), which are predicated on having ADS-B out capabilities that meet whatever requirements the FAA has in place at the time. Looks like they're phasing in the need to meet the 2020 spec in order to receive traffic data services. A little sooner than I would have thought, though.
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Last edited by greghughespdx : 06-29-2015 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 06-29-2015, 10:38 AM
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rleffler rleffler is offline
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Location: Delaware, OH (KDLZ)
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I dropped Bill Moffet a note this morning to get his take on this. When I get a response, I'll forward it.

I know he was planning on updating the GPS in his products with less expensive certified GPS, but I didn't think it was in this time frame. I seem to recall he was planning like next summer.

Bob Leffler
N410BL - RV10 Flying
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Old 06-29-2015, 12:45 PM
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chazking chazking is offline
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: State of Bliss
Posts: 396
Default Limitations

I suspect the volume has overwhelmed them & their service levels have suffered. This is a way of managing their service levels.

I don't suppoort this approach as volume exercise is an excellent way to improve service levels. And, demonstrate scalability!
Ch?z King
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:11 PM
Apexeon Apexeon is offline
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 38
Default ADS-B order now on hold

This morning I was ordering some oil filters and e-z turn lube from Spruce. I also had a Pathfinder ads-b in the cart to use with Avare on my Nexus 7. I took the ads-b out of the cart after reading this thread. Not going to spend $539 on something I can only use for 6 months. Why would the FAA put a limit on a service which has the potential to save lives.
Don Thompson
Tallahassee, FL
Hangar D-3 Quincy, FL (2J9)

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Old 06-29-2015, 01:23 PM
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rbibb rbibb is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Freericksburg, VA
Posts: 624

This is speculation but hey, that's what we do here!

The FAA offered "free" weather as an incentive to have owners install ADSB. Sort of like the government offering subsidies to individual states to create exchanges, but I digress.

But that gambit didn't work as planned. They did not foresee, cheap, portable solutions coming on the market that would allow users to take advantage of the free stuff while not stepping up to the plate and buying the full ADSB solution.

They really, really want everyone to install the full ADS-B out capability (as it is so much better than mode C radar and allows much greater density in congested environments). Since at the current pace 2020 ain't happening they have come up with a new plan.

Take away the free stuff unless you have full ADS-B installed. Keep in mind this was the original plan and no one envisioned cheap, ADS-B "in" solutions when this was first developed.

Expect a firestorm. Expect little, or no, relief.

This is all about better ATC density in terminal environments. In other words, primarily Part 121 operations and high end GA operations (biz jets, king airs, etc.) that are the majority users of Class B terminal airpots.

Again, all speculation but "informed" speculation.

What we need is a cheaper means of certifying GPS source and install to the required accuracy/availability. That is the real rub and major cost drive IMO.

Did I solve anything? No. Did I inform? maybe
Am I right? I'd bet something but not anything I wasn't prepared to lose anyway.
Richard Bibb
RV-4 N144KT
Fredericksburg, VA
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:31 PM
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rbibb rbibb is offline
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Freericksburg, VA
Posts: 624

One last thing. AS a practical matter I don't see how they can prevent you receiving WX and traffic broadcast with this caveat.

Traffic today is triggered when a ADS-B Out equipped place broadcasts its position to a ground station. Traffic info within a 10NM radius of that aircraft is broadcast. If you are flying within range you will receive that broadcast but sense it is only within a 10 NM radius of the triggering aircraft it may or may not show traffic of interest to you. Example, you are 9.5 NM north from triggering aircraft. You will only see a target north of you if it is within 0.5 NM of your position.

I suspect they may implement similar effort for weather but don't know how that would work as the range for weather is much larger.

At least this will make the "ask the Adminstrator" session at Oshkosh a lively one!
Richard Bibb
RV-4 N144KT
Fredericksburg, VA
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