VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.


Go Back   VAF Forums > Main > Safety
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-01-2014, 04:22 PM
kjelle69's Avatar
kjelle69 kjelle69 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden, 67?07′N 20?45′E
Posts: 50
Default The impossible turn.

The correct mental preparation , (if the engine fails at take off), is to fly the plane straight forward with only small corrections in the general course and try to land safely. But IF the situation is a little bit more on the positive side?

If you have enough altitude you obviously must have the opportonity to turn around. In order to improve the possibility to succeed turning around it must be possible to take advantage of the wind direction and make sure your vector places the plane in a good position above the field.

Look on the attached image, isn't option number three better if you have a long enough runway and can gain altitude fast, like the RV's generally do.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1x...ew?usp=sharing
__________________
________________________________________
RV-4. O-360A1D/180 with Pacesetter 200 Prop.

Last edited by kjelle69 : 11-01-2014 at 04:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-01-2014, 04:46 PM
Bevan Bevan is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BC
Posts: 1,698
Default

Sort of. MY OPINION AT THE MOMENT IS...Depends on how long the runway is, how strong the wind is, obstacles in the airport vicinity to name a few. As long as there is a possibility to land on the runway directly ahead, I would think that you should remain directly above it. After that runway has passed, I may choose to drift to the right (option 3) once useful runway is gone (downwind, and assuming this does not add any other risks or remove any potential off airport landing sites) so that the power off turn would be into wind maximizing airspeed over the wing while turning and minimizing the radius of the turn over the ground.

Whatever method you choose, have a firm decision altitude number in your head before beginning the takeoff role below which, it's straight ahead. Practice at altitude. Remember that when practicing at altitude with the engine at idle, your performance will be better than with engine completely shut down and under duress. So add something to your practice numbers.

My opinions only. NOT a CFI. Be safe but do practice.

Bevan
__________________
RV7A Flying since 2015
O-360-A1F6 (parallel valve) 180HP
Dual P-mags
Precision F.I. with AP purge valve
Vinyl Wrapped Exterior
Grand Rapids EFIS
Located in western Canada
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-01-2014, 07:34 PM
GalinHdz's Avatar
GalinHdz GalinHdz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: KSGJ / TJBQ
Posts: 2,126
Default

Actually the impossible turn is possible, with proper training and above some minimum altitude. Now this minimum altitude changes on every takeoff but you should have a good idea of what it is prior to taking off. If you don't have a good idea of what that minimum altitude is for that particular takeoff, don't even try it.

My 2 cents.


Last edited by GalinHdz : 11-02-2014 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Typo
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-01-2014, 07:35 PM
agirard7a's Avatar
agirard7a agirard7a is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 715
Default Impossible turn?

Does not seem to be impossible in an RV. 500' Agl.(my personal target) Best glide speed, or 100
MPh by default, climb out straight, turn into the wind, climb or keep the nose down to 100mph and turn as steep as needed. No G's being pulled in this descending turn. I have a suction cup altitude bug on my altimeter. It's part of my check list to add 500' to field elevation. You won't have time for calculations.
I've practiced multiple times. I will still land straight ahead if there is open space. I will turn back if the risk exists of injuring others. 500' is my min.

I know this is a heated debate and some may not like my comments.
It's worked for me. I want the option.
__________________
Al Girard, Newport, RI
N339AG
RV-9

Last edited by agirard7a : 11-01-2014 at 07:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-01-2014, 08:00 PM
RV10inOz's Avatar
RV10inOz RV10inOz is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane Qld. Aust.
Posts: 2,293
Default KNOW YOUR AEROPLANE

1. Know YOUR aeroplane, not all RV's do this the same.
The RV9 mentioned above compared to an RV6 would be vastly different. My -10 will do it from 400' and we have a small margin. From 500' if executed properly we risk running off the far end of the runway.

2. You must focus on airspeed and a 45 degree turn, flying just off the buffet.

3. You must do this for real and do it the first few times at altitude using a hard deck, then do it starting at a height a few hundred higher. Work up to the lower altitudes. CAUTION: Do this ONLY with a suitable instructor, and I mean suitable?an Ag instructor, aerobatic (low level endorsed) or something similar as the rush close to the ground is not to be taken lightly.

4. Be prepared to take anything within reach, you may not make a turn back but a 90 degree turn may be the best option and within reach, be primed to push for airspeed initially and bank to 45 degrees, then pull to just on the onset of buffeter slightly less.

5. KNOW YOUR AEROPLANE

6. This is not for beginners or the untrained. Low level ops is serious business.
__________________
______________________________

David Brown

DYNON Authorised Dealer and Installer


The two best investments you can make, by any financial test, an EMS and APS!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-01-2014, 08:24 PM
Ironflight's Avatar
Ironflight Ironflight is offline
VAF Moderator / Line Boy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,452
Default

I say this every time - everyone who died doing the turn-back THOUGHT they could do it.....they all considered themselves to be superior pilots.

If you land straight ahead, you'll most likely survive with minor or no injuries.

If you turn back and screw it up, you (and your trusting passengers) will die - period.

The percentage that make it is small, the percentage that die is large.

So the question you have to ask yourself is...do you feel lucky?

Practice all you want - unless you have experienced a real emergency, you don't know how you'll react.
__________________
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-01-2014, 08:26 PM
Kevin Horton's Avatar
Kevin Horton Kevin Horton is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,358
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV10inOz View Post
My -10 will do it from 400' and we have a small margin. From 500' if executed properly we risk running off the far end of the runway.
How much difference did you find in the altitude required with mixture pulled to ICO, vs the altitude required with the engine running at idle?
__________________
Kevin Horton
RV-8
Moses Lake, WA, USA
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8/
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-01-2014, 08:42 PM
rvbuilder2002's Avatar
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,200
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
I say this every time - everyone who died doing the turn-back THOUGHT they could do it.....they all considered themselves to be superior pilots.

If you land straight ahead, you'll most likely survive with minor or no injuries.

If you turn back and screw it up, you (and your trusting passengers) will die - period.

The percentage that make it is small, the percentage that die is large.

So the question you have to ask yourself is...do you feel lucky?

Practice all you want - unless you have experienced a real emergency, you don't know how you'll react.
Paul, I couldn't have said it better if I spent a week working on it, and I would have pushed the like button if there was one....

Regardless of how passionate anyone is about their beliefs on this subject, I hope they will consider ever word of this post in regards to what they believe.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-01-2014, 10:27 PM
agirard7a's Avatar
agirard7a agirard7a is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 715
Default ?

Paul, Kevin, what does one do when landing
straight requires you land in a populated, congested
area?

Personally, if practiced in knowing ones airplane and altitude limits, turning back
may be a "luckier" option than landing in someone's back yard,
school yard, or a crowded parking lot.

I'm not saying landing straight in wouldn't be a safer
option. If open space is available.
__________________
Al Girard, Newport, RI
N339AG
RV-9
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-01-2014, 10:40 PM
jjhoneck jjhoneck is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: PORT ARANSAS
Posts: 419
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by agirard7a View Post
Paul, Kevin, what does one do when landing
straight requires you land in a populated, congested
area?
As the great Bob Hoover says: "Fly the plane as far into the crash as possible."
__________________
Jay Honeck
RV-8A N14EG
Port Aransas, TX
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:23 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.