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E-R Tanks for RV-6

Has anyone installed the Hotel Whiskey (SafeAir) extended range tanks on their RV-6? Couple Questions: Do the tanks feed directly into the main fuel line or into the main tanks? Do the selector valves function adequately and how do you reach the one on the right side? How do you use these tanks; for x/c only? How do you manage your fuel in flight? Would you do this again?

Thanks,

JB
RV-6, N30JB
 
EAA article

They have an article in the EAA mag, Sport Aviation. It reads more like an ad and installation log, but it has great background info. I would read it if you have not. I did research this and talked to them several years ago, just before they released the kit. I had a RV-4 at the time. I elected not to go with the kit, but not for technical reasons. I think the set up is sound.

Here is there site with all the info: http://www.safeair1.com/HWA/er_tanks.htm

They have two designs, but they both transfer fuel from the aux to the main tank on the respective side. From there it is the standard fuel feed from main tank to engine. The original system used a gravity and a valve. The newer design for the RV-7/8 (which also will work on the RV-4/6) uses an electric pump to transfer fuel to the main. The original design works on the principal the aux tank is higher (due to dihedral of wing) and will drain into the main tank if its partially/mostly emptied. The reason for the difference or change to a pump transfer (using a typical Facet electric pump) is because of the brackets on the back of the RV-7/8 tanks, there is no (good) place to run the aux fuel line. I also suspect the original gravity feed took longer to transfer with just gravity, but than who cares, as long as it transfers fast enough to feed the engine.




Bottom line whether using the gravity/valve or electric pump they both aux tank setups feed into the main where fuel is feed to the engine just like usual.

He are the diagrams and description. http://www.safeair1.com/HWA/er_system.htm


Van's aircraft made a comment in the last RVator saying they don't see a need for it (more fuel). Their logic is most of the time you don't fly for enough to justify it but always have to carry the weight. I have been Van's RV builder, pilot since about 1987. I remember when Van said constant speed props are too expensive and pilots don't want to spend the money. He changed his mind later when he put a c/s prop on one of his RV's many years ago. Well now all of Van's factory planes have C/S props, and yes pilots are willing to spend the money as the De facto prop choice.

In a word the extra fuel is a personal choice. This one (extra tanks) does have cost and weight implication. Other wise operationally it has no effect if you are not using them except the dead weight.


I have looked at their set up and it looks well designed, simple and almost fool proof. However as mentioned the difference between the RV-4/6 and RV-7/8 setup. The RV-4/6 setup uses gravity and a valve. The RV-7/8 uses a pump to pump into the main tanks. The latter has one caution. If you pump fuel from the Aux to the main too early (before there is room in the main tank) you will pump fuel overboard out the vent. You can opt for the RV-7/8 electric pump setup for the RV-4/6. It is not a big deal but it is not fool proof. You can imagine if you screw up and try for max range you may be in for a surprise. I think accurate fuel level gauges is a must, especially with the aux tank and max range flight.

I use to fly the Piper Apache/Aztec. It had two main tanks (36 gal each) and two wing tip aux tanks (18 gal each), for a total of 108 gal. With the O320's at 65% cruise I was burning 16 gal/hr. I had total endurance of close to 7 hours!!! at 160 mph true. Frankly on cross countries, after 4 hours I usually had enough any way and would land for a break. To go another 2-3 hours was possible but sometimes not desirable, at least from the stretching the legs stand point. I did the record flights sometimes and admit having fuel was great for local flights since I commuted about 70 miles round trip 5-6 days a week. I had to fill up less. So sometimes extra fuel is a blessing and a curse. The RV-6 will not fly the same with the mains and aux fuel fuel as with light fuel (no aux 1/2 main).


Sorry I have no first hand experience but I met the principals at Oshkosh when they first flew their RV-4 and where just starting to talk about selling it as a kit. To me it looks like a well engineered, clever and simple system that should be reliable. They do offer a pump timer that automatically shuts it down after the transfer starts, after a set time so you don't forget to turn it off later. Transfer takes from my guess about 10-14 minutes? The only other thing I can think of is pumping fuel overboard by transferring too early. Besides always carrying the weight and expense of the kit I see no big negative, but do you really need the extra fuel? To me going cross country landing at little strips, hanging out and soaking up the local culture (greasy spoon, petting old airport dog or walking around looking at cool planes and talking to old timers) is fun as going more miles in a day.

I have the RV-7 and see that the RV-4/6 would benifit more, but I flew from Seattle to Phoenix a dozen times round trip in my RV-4 and it took one fuel stop half way. One time I had a HUGE HUGE tail wind and over flew my Redding/Redmond California stop and continued towards PHX, flying another hour to Bishop California (in the Sierra Nevada Mountains). In theory with a little extra fuel, say 4 gal I could have made it to North Phoenix with no fuel. I don't do no fuel, but with an extra 9 gal it would have been doable in this one case with min reserves (I don't do min reserves either, at least planned). However with out the tail wind even with the 9 gal of extra fuel, I would always have to stop once, whether 1/2 way or 2/3rds, making it all the way with no fuel stop would be not possible, at least with out adding a lot more than 9 gal. So what is your mission?


I have a plan to add fuel with a small 10 gal drag racing fuel tank just behind the seats and tap into the main fuel selector. I know it will work. The plus part is it will be easy to install and remove when not needed. The negative is there is fuel in cockpit, it takes space and has affect on the CG and baggage. Good luck, let us know what you do, experience, pictures if you go for it. George
 
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HW installed their ER tanks on my RV6 a few years ago. The ER tanks feed the main tanks. The valves are fine. To open and close the valve on the right, I loosen my shoulder belts and lean over. It?s a stretch, but I don?t have any trouble. I use the ER tanks for x/c. I burn fuel from the main tanks until the gauges indicate ? full. Then, I open both ER tank valves, wait ten minutes, confirm fuel flow via the main tanks? gauges, and close the ER tank valves. I would do it again. The ER tanks have worked flawlessly and HW was a joy to work with.

As a clarification, on installations such as my RV6, fuel flow is facilitated by a combination of gravity and pressure. That is, the ER tanks are pressurized with ram air which is derived from ER fuel tank ?vents? that are positioned in the airstream. Once the ER tank valves are opened, both gravity and the pressure differential cause the fuel to flow into the lower/lower pressure main tanks.
 
I have different aux tanks

I have two tip tanks containing 8.5 gallons each. All tanks gravity feed and all are individually selectable. The plumbing and valving is strictly my design. All four tanks have a fuel quantity gauge with a yellow warning and red alarm light. Each fuel line has its own filter before its selector valve. The selector valves are oriented so that the selector lever is physically pointing to the tank it is selecting so the operating configuration can be seen at a glance and the current tank in use is intuitive. If you design your own system I recommend that you spend a lot of time mentally exercising each configuration you come up with - I went through MANY configurations before the right one clicked the "yes" light in my head. I have no worry about the order of filling tanks and no flight requirements except to select the tank I want to use, switch tanks in an orderly maner to balance the lateral load, assume a high fuel burn rate (10 gallons per hour), keep a record of how much time I have used each tank and flight plan with a one hour reserve.

I have two valves in line on a center console. The forward one has two selectable inlet ports (the other two are plugged) and one outlet port. The valve is installed with a 45 degree rotation so that the minimum lateral profile exists and the console width is minimized. The 45 degree inlet port of the forward valve (using the nose of the airplane as 0 degrees and the right wing as 90 degrees for reference) is connected to the right tip tank and the 315 degree inlet port is connected to the left tip tank. The 135 and 225 degree ports are plugged. All four inlet port positions are indented but the forward valve position has a vertical console panel infront of it which physically prevents selecting the plugged inlet ports. The selectable valve positions are marked on the console surface for position and application. The outlet port is connected to the center of three fuel inlet ports on the aft fuel selector valve.

The aft fuel valve on the console has four operational positions: (1) straight forward points to the forward fuel valve and it opens the inlet port to fuel from the forward valve - either the left tip or right tip is supplying fuel (which ever of the two selectable positions the forward valve is in - remember it has no "off" position); (2) 90 degrees points to the right wing and it opens the inlet port to the right main tank; (3) 270 degrees points to the left wing and it opens the inlet port to the left main tank; (4) 180 degrees point to the tail of the plane and it selects the plugged port - this is the all fuel off position. To get the narrow console this valve has to be installed with a 45 degree left orientation also. To get the valve lever clocking described here I had to file a new index flat 45 degrees to the right on the valve shaft and reorient the valve control lever.

My operating procedure is to take off on one of the mains, fly for 1/2 hour, select the opposite tip - fly for 1/2 hour, Select the other tip - fly for 1/2 hour, select the previously unused main - fly for a half hour, select the original main - fly for 1/2 hour, Select the other main - fly for 1/2 hour, select the original main - fly for 0.3 hour, select the other main - fly for 0.3 hours. By this time I want to be on the ground but I will nurse a couple of tenths out of each tip and start really getting tense while I go to a hand on the lever run the tanks dry strategy.

I use the tips on virtualy every flight and for my purposes they are indespensible.

Bob Axsom
 
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Why not bigger tanks?

Why are people messing around with HW tubes and tip tanks with the associated valves/pumps and extra filler caps etc. Seems like a bunch of systems, failure points, operational procedures etc.

Why not just extend the tank that is already there? The operational impact of this would be almost zero in all phases. The RV6 has one more bay than the 4 to get the extra 6 gallons and Rockets have even more (50gal? in a wing shorter than a 4's). Is there a reason NOT to just extend the wing tanks a couple of ribs instead of the other methods mentioned here. (other than adding to a flying/painted AC).

Chuck
 
No

No reason at all if you are building the wing from scratch. If you are starting out with a quick build wing considerable disassembly would be required. With ready made tanks available from several sources (because the need for more endurance is widely recognized for a serious traveling machine) that have been proven in flight the temptation to use them is great. Using a greater portion of the leading edge is the most obvious "from scratch" solution. If I had been in that situation I certainly would have followed your rationale. What I would not do for my use of an airplane is be satisfied with less the 3 hours of fuel with 1 hour reserve at 75% power.

Bob Axsom
 
IT has been done

chuck said:
Is there a reason NOT to just extend the wing tanks a couple of ribs instead of the other methods mentioned here. (other than adding to a flying/painted AC). Chuck
A RV-9 or 9A builder did that and had it on their wen site. First you have to buy, shear and form a large sheet of aluminum. The forming was not easy. Skill and resources are a factor. Other wise they said it was worth it but way more work than they imagined. It did not add that much fuel I recall. George
 
gmcjetpilot said:
......First you have to buy, shear and form a large sheet of aluminum. The forming was not easy..........George

You could give Van's a call. In the past, they have been known to custom form various parts for builders at reasonable cost. They formed a custom sill for a friend's 6A project a few years ago. At one time, they would even supply you with one piece wing skins if you were willing to eat the freight. Perhaps such an extended length fuel tank skin "could" be shipped with the wing kit? Certainly, it seems to me they could (if willing) easily shear it to custom length (and the rear baffle for that matter) for just such a purpose. Of course, whether they would or not is the $64 dollar question. Van's is a lot more busy and complicated than it used to be. Still, I'd contact them first before exploring other avenues. Its worth a shot...who knows?

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"
 
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