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PH Aviation Flap Actuators

Pat Hatch

Well Known Member
Advertiser
I think I owe an explanation to my clients regarding the recent introduction of the new RV-10 flap actuator by Vans Aircraft.

I became aware of the new Vans flap actuator last Friday when a thread appeared on VAF asking for wiring information on the new motor. Someone mentioned that they thought there was a possibility that PH Aviation was supplying the new actuators. We are not. As far as I can tell, Vans is acquiring them from the same supplier that I use, and it is basically the same actuator that we sell. The only difference that I see is that we machined a special endpiece that accepts the CM-4 rod-end bearing—the same one that Vans uses in their legacy flap motors on all the RVs, and the new Vans flap actuator uses the supplier’s stock setup, which is an endpiece with a ¼” lateral hole drilled through it. I am assuming that they have modified the brackets and the flap weldment to receive the new actuator.

I am a big fan of Vans Aircraft. I have built a number of their airplanes and worked on countless others of theirs. I am a supporter; I admire the company and their products. Like a lot of people, as I was building my RVs, I developed what I thought was a better mousetrap, and ended up making a few for other RV builders in the area, which eventually became a small hobby/business. When I developed the RV-10 Flap Actuator, I was fully aware that anyone could basically do the same thing, even Vans, and that someday they probably would. Honestly, I am delighted that Vans has come around to using this same flap actuator that I have been selling for years. Let’s face it, the old Vans flap motor had become a dinosaur and needed to be replaced! It was too expensive, did not stop at the ends of the stroke, and did not have an internal position feedback—not to mention the maintenance issues! I can honestly say that this is the best flap actuator available today for the job that it does. I am delighted that Vans now offers it.

When I heard the Vans announcement at Oshkosh last year about the RV-15 and the new flap actuator, I suspected that they might be on to the same actuator we use. We have had a tremendous response to it, and I knew Vans had probably become aware of its success. I even wrote Greg Hughes an email in support of it. I did not hear back, but I was not surprised because I know how busy those guys are. I’m not faulting them at all.

The new Vans actuator sells for $200—ours sells for $349. Obviously, Vans has a couple of things going for it: they can easily modify their production to accept the stock actuator setup with the hole in the end, which brings the cost way down. Plus, the economy of scale: they obviously are going to sell many more of these than we ever will. And I’m delighted that they are providing this improvement. It’s all about the success of the RV line of aircraft and I’m a supporter.

So where does that leave us in the picture? We enthusiastically support the new Vans flap actuator that appears to be standard in the new RV-10 kits now. They also have a retrofit option for older RV-10s. This is obviously going to be the best option for the RV-10 folks. We will continue to offer our version for as long as it remains useful for those single-digit (and RV-14) RVers that might want to retrofit with the new actuator but don’t necessarily want to modify their flap weldment. In other words, our version will continue to use the rod-end bearing so that it will match up with your current flap weldment.

Like I said, this is more a hobby than a business for me so where it goes from here is not a major concern of mine. I do want to continue to support my customers where I can. I really have had a good time doing this and want to thank my many customers for their support over the years.

So, if you took the time to read through to this point, thanks! And sorry for the longwinded explanation, but I do think I owed it to my customers.
 
Thank you for all you do

Pat,
Thank you for your support. I have one of your older actuators on my RV9A. I am not flying yet, but it is all set up. It integrates well with the Garmin G3X suite. You came out with this upgrade many years ago and it was easy and a no brainer to add it to my build as I got to that point in the build.
Your team is the best.
 
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Ok. I'm in

My Van's flap motor failed yesterday... AGAIN! I've always been able to take it apart and clean it, but I'm tired of having to deal with it. I want a permanent solution. So I just ordered yours.

Thanks for supplying a superior product. As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I'm glad Van saw the light for new kits.
 
Anyone heard any rumours on if the -14 will also get an updated flap motor weldment etc?

I am fairly close to ordering the PH max actuator - the fuselage is on the ocean at the moment on its way.
 
Pat, thank you for building a better mouse tap and I'm proud to have your product in our RV-10. I'm beyond impressed with your response to Van's vendor switch. Most would not take it gracefully. Again, thanks for improving the fleet!
 
Pat, thank you for building a better mouse tap and I'm proud to have your product in our RV-10. I'm beyond impressed with your response to Van's vendor switch. Most would not take it gracefully. Again, thanks for improving the fleet!

Totally agree with Chris! I too have your flap actuator in my 10. It's performed great for the 1st 280 hours! Your response reveals a LOT about your character!
 
You could still be successful with the 10k aircraft still out there, especially if you had a “drop in” retrofit kit for us.
 
You could still be successful with the 10k aircraft still out there, especially if you had a “drop in” retrofit kit for us.

Excellent point, Walt. And thanks to everyone else for all the positive comments. It really has been a blast interacting with all of you through the sale of my products. We'll see where this goes when the dust settles, but our plan is to keep offering the RV Max and we'll be working on some kind of retrofit kit that we might offer for each of the models.
 
TOO Busy

It is about now that Greg should step in and say something.......

Just saying ;)

he is to busy finding a better flap actuator for the RV 15. maybe that will be an "Armstrong" brand in keeping with the back country theme.

Electronics, we don't need no stinking electronics. and hand propping an io 390
 
PH retrofit kits

+1 for model specific retrofit kits. I bought my 9 (it has the original flap motor) and would sure like a retrofit kit. Keep up the good work Pat!
 
PH Aviation Retro Kit

Here is our sneak preview of our "retro kit." Really all you will need for all of the single-digit RVs are the two brackets, an AN5-13 bolt, nut, and cotter key.

IMG_0692pp.jpg

We'll be offering these kits shortly. Here we're showing an RV-6 flap channel that we recently removed from the airplane with the legacy flap motor installed. We'll be taking this apart to make a video that will show the steps for converting to the new flap actuator. Next to it is a new RV-9 flap channel that we're currently building. The new flap actuator is currently being installed in the channel. They are both very similar and hopefully it's obvious that it's a pretty simple conversion in either case.

IMG_0654pp.jpg

We're really looking forward to developing these kits and hopefully they'll make it easier for folks to convert to the new flap actuators.
 

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Retro kits

Pat, thanks for the update and pictures of the upcoming retrofit kits. It’s great to hear they’ll be available soon. It will solve issues for a lot of us!

All the best, Mike
 
Will you make a kit for the -14?

If so, I might hold off on ordering until you do.
 
Can you guys enlighten those of us who are unaware of past issues with the conventional flap actuators. Once, early on at around 100 hrs I had to clean the grease out of the motor brushes. Other than that, there has been no other issues with my two actuators than I’m flying.
 
Will you make a kit for the -14?

If so, I might hold off on ordering until you do.

We'll take a look at that, but if you'll have a look at our RV-14 Installation Instructions for the RV Max, you'll note that you're just modifying a couple of existing parts. It's on the web page here if you'd like to download it.
 
Anxious to see the video. If this provides a simpler way to transition from the stock flap actuator to yours then I'm on board.
 
We'll take a look at that, but if you'll have a look at our RV-14 Installation Instructions for the RV Max, you'll note that you're just modifying a couple of existing parts. It's on the web page here if you'd like to download it.

Thanks for the prompt reply Pat - I’ll take a look.
 
I'd be very interested in an easy retrofit for the -9

Can you guys enlighten those of us who are unaware of past issues with the conventional flap actuators. Once, early on at around 100 hrs I had to clean the grease out of the motor brushes. Other than that, there has been no other issues with my two actuators than I’m flying.

Well...

I bought a used -9A with the "basic" setup (old Vans flap motor etc.) The builder put the flap switch on the stick, with the "helpful" feature that the switch stays on when flicked up. The apparent idea being that in a go-around, etc., you just flip the switch up and then attend to other tasks while the flaps continue to go up. Key aspect of this setup: there is no limit switch to shut off the motor once the flaps are fully retracted. From what I can tell, this setup is not entirely unusual.

The problem is that with this old basic setup, if you inadvertently leave the switch up, or (worse yet) hit it *accidentally* one cold night while wearing gloves, and continue on your merry way, you might unknowingly run the flap motor against the stops for, say, 45 minutes, and that will absolutely cook the flap motor. The odor is really quite sudden, alarming, and distinctive; fortunately not much smoke is generated.

Obviously I know nothing about this based on personal experience.

I also have no experience with what happens if, in addition to all this, it turns out that somebody decided to use the wrong fuse for the flaps many years previously. Hello darkness my old friend. Thank you, backup battery attached to the Garmin G5 :)
 
"Retro Installation" Kits

We've got the RV Max "Retro Installation" kits up on the web site for those who expressed an interest. I linked the installation instructions on the product page and I would appreciate any feedback or whether I need to add anything else. Thanks!
 
I just replaced mine yesterday. It was pretty straight forward. I just hope to never have to worry about my flap motor again!

Thanks Pat!
 
Van's Flap Motor Upgrade Available for All Models

Not sure if this is being discussed elsewhere on the forums but during Van’s presentation at Oshkosh, they said the flap motor upgrade is now available for all RV models (reference Brantel's video of the presentation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO1pKlyPqvk at 44:40 the speaker says “We have a new new flap motor. The first flap motor was rather slow, we replaced that with a more high speed…and backed that into the other airplanes. It’s available for all current models. It has integrated flap position…”). And the accompanying slide: https://lucmac.smugmug.com/Van-s-Tuesday-presentation/i-5mMMqJJ/A

I'm wondering if there are new/different brackets for each RV model to use this actuator or if the actuator is a drop-in replacement for the old one. Also curious whether 'high speed' means faster for all models. Some RV-14 owners have noted that the flap speed is a bit slower than they'd like, so if the new actuator for the -14 is faster that would be great. I don't see anything on Van's website other than the RV-10 actuator which has been there since last year I believe (and not sure if the new one referenced in the presentation is the same as the -10 is using or if they have a different one that is hopefully smaller/lighter since the 2-seaters could use a less beefy actuator).

Anybody know more details?
 
I don't see anything on Van's website other than the RV-10 actuator which has been there since last year I believe (and not sure if the new one referenced in the presentation is the same as the -10 is using or if they have a different one that is hopefully smaller/lighter since the 2-seaters could use a less beefy actuator).

Anybody know more details?

I ordered the RV-10 actuator to use in my RV-14 last year, and it was PN ES-FA-PA-450-12-5

I don't see this available on the site anymore - only ES-FA-PA-270-12-5. OP64 has been updated to the new part number (https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/OP-64-RV-10-Flap-motor-retrofit.pdf)

Does anyone know exactly what the issue was with the -450 one? He mentioned "a bit slow". I wonder if i need to replace my actuator. :(

From what i can gather, -450 refers to the force (my actuator says its a PA-09P-VANS and is 450 lbs). So presumably the -270 is a lighter torque (270lbs) version (and therefore a bit faster?)
 
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Ph aviation replacement

I just replaced my flap actuator in my RV9A with a PH aviation Max. It works well and the speed seems good. Its pretty powerful and has up and down stops and positioner. I think theVans and PH aviation have the same throw and similar mounting.
 
Not sure if this is being discussed elsewhere on the forums but during Van’s presentation at Oshkosh, they said the flap motor upgrade is now available for all RV models (reference Brantel's video of the presentation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO1pKlyPqvk at 44:40 the speaker says “We have a new new flap motor. The first flap motor was rather slow, we replaced that with a more high speed…and backed that into the other airplanes. It’s available for all current models. It has integrated flap position…”). And the accompanying slide: https://lucmac.smugmug.com/Van-s-Tuesday-presentation/i-5mMMqJJ/A

I'm wondering if there are new/different brackets for each RV model to use this actuator or if the actuator is a drop-in replacement for the old one. Also curious whether 'high speed' means faster for all models. Some RV-14 owners have noted that the flap speed is a bit slower than they'd like, so if the new actuator for the -14 is faster that would be great. I don't see anything on Van's website other than the RV-10 actuator which has been there since last year I believe (and not sure if the new one referenced in the presentation is the same as the -10 is using or if they have a different one that is hopefully smaller/lighter since the 2-seaters could use a less beefy actuator).

Anybody know more details?

Yeah, I know that when I followed up about that for the RV-14 at van’s tent i was referred to a lady behind the counter selling Van’s bling (didn’t catch the name) and she said updating their website to get that into the system to order was on her to do list and maybe about a month after they got back from Airventure it’ll show up for the 14 to order. Disappointing because also after the Tuesday Van’s meeting one of the main engineers who worked that project and demo’d that same flap motor in the 14A that was at their tent (same plane that also had the new carbon 2 blade prop) told me he was surprised you couldn’t order it yet. He said the engineering was done a log time ago and many of the motors were already bought and sitting on the supply shelves….
 
I called Van's yesterday and was told it is only for the -10. I mentioned the slide from OSH that said "all current models". Still said it was only for the 10. Would like to know either way if something different is heard.
 
Just me

The actuators are all the same from what I can tell. I just called PHaviation and ordered one. It arrived in a few days. Pat was very helpful and even offers a retro kit for the RV7,9 series planes. It works well. I don't see a reason to go thru Vans if they are giving you a hassle; they have bigger problems to get resolved then worrying about a flap actuator being on the menu. JMHO
 
The actuators are all the same from what I can tell. I just called PHaviation and ordered one. It arrived in a few days. Pat was very helpful and even offers a retro kit for the RV7,9 series planes. It works well. I don't see a reason to go thru Vans if they are giving you a hassle; they have bigger problems to get resolved then worrying about a flap actuator being on the menu. JMHO

For the -14, it’s more about not needing to do the modification as per Pat’s instructions, if vans has pre-made parts ready. Would suck to mount it with the modified parts and angles etc only to have vans come out with new parts a week later.
 
For the -14, it’s more about not needing to do the modification as per Pat’s instructions, if vans has pre-made parts ready. Would suck to mount it with the modified parts and angles etc only to have vans come out with new parts a week later.

Agreed, but also, I'm interested in a faster flap motor for the -14. I asked Pat about his flap motor some time back and as I recall it wasn't any faster than the stock Van's flap motor for the -14. Now I'm wondering if the 'new' flap motor from Van's is actually faster for all RV models, as implied in the OSH forum, or maybe it's only faster on the -10 (compared to the original) but not for 2-seaters. Wish we had some numbers...
 
PH motor in my 14

I’ve been using PH flap motor for more than 3 years and 450 hrs and I find it more than fast enough. I press and in 5 secs now at the new flap position. I don’t think I’d want it any faster. 10 will have the same flap motor from Pat. His product is excellent.
 
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