Front baggage well as battery compartment

Am working on thinking through and then fabricating a battery mount structure for the front 'well'. Currently I have a Powersonic PSH-12180NB-FR battery on the bench that I'm thinking will be sufficient to crank an engine (high discharge capacity, 21AH) but I'm not sure. In light of that, I'm thinking that anything I fabricate needs to be backwards compatible with the larger battery mount (F-877A) provided by Van's (fits the aft location as well). I made mine up from one of the two extra cockpit 'column covers' (don't know the technical name nor have the part number handy).

(am trying to figure out how to insert a few pics here, my rules say i'm not allowed to post attachments)

I am thinking of tying into the front (firewall) and rear (just ahead of the gear tower) angles and into the sub-floor with spacers for structural support but am considering making the standoffs (to clear the mount platenuts that the battery tie down uses) either side by side reversible or same side turn around reversible to allow either a narrow (for my current battery) or wide (for the F-877A in the event I have to go with a larger battery later) battery mount.

Anyone have any pictures of how they skinned this cat that I can use for thought provoking options?

This might help, I mounted the vans battery bracket inside the front baggage compartment on the passenger side. I added a stiffener underneath the floor. Have look at my site here, http://mykitlog.com/tcb328

Bird

Personal opinion, but it is, to me, "tragic" to see an RV-8 spoiled by taking up the most useful baggage space* with a battery and/or electrical components, when the design offers 2 perfectly good battery locations and plenty of space for wiring etc.

* "Most useful" since it has a strong floor (unlike the rest of the fwd compartment), is quick and easy to access (unlike the rear), secured by key (unlike the rear), and for many types of baggage, can be wedged securely in against manoeuvring / turbulence i.e. does not need tying down.

Andy Hill said:

Personal opinion, but it is, to me, "tragic" to see an RV-8 spoiled by taking up the most useful baggage space* with a battery and/or electrical components, when the design offers 2 perfectly good battery locations and plenty of space for wiring etc.

* "Most useful" since it has a strong floor (unlike the rest of the fwd compartment), is quick and easy to access (unlike the rear), secured by key (unlike the rear), and for many types of baggage, can be wedged securely in against manoeuvring / turbulence i.e. does not need tying down.

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Well said Andy!!!

Search the threads, this one has been discussed many times. If you have an 0360 and constant speed put it in the back.

Spoiled RV-8A

As I sit here in Kazakhstan unable to fly my plane (because it is 5,000 miles away) I find it somewhat annoying to have my aircraft that I built over a considerable length of time described as ?tragic? and ?spoiled? because I did not build it the way someone else thinks I should have. It is fine to state your reasoning for doing something one way or the other, however I find it very disturbing that someone would say such negative things about my aircraft. I know that you did not direct this at me personally, however I must wonder how many times people say things here in an inappropriate way. Let?s think about what we say and how we say it. Every aircraft that is built here is special and certainly a major milestone in many peoples life. Lets keep it positive,

Blue Skies

Help Folks!

+1 for Tim, Bird, and Pat

-1 for Andy and Jon (?tragic? ?spoiled? ?well said? ???).

IMHO: There?s too much trashing of ?other? VAFer?s ideas, questions, and airplanes on VAF these days. How about just an objective, supportive response regarding the pros and cons of using, or not using, the 8/8A?s forward baggage well for something other than baggage as designed? (Andy, the second part of your post is helpful, but your first sentence is clearly a negative opinion . . . how about removing the negative next time?) How about some related links (below)? Then the builder has some information so they can make their own decision about how they want to build their RV.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=2617&highlight=baggage

http://www.romeolima.com/RV8/Electrical.htm

I would also add that the very-lightweight LiFePO4 batteries are a new consideration when it comes to battery location.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=77016&highlight=LiFePO

Bottom Line: Is VAF a ?stress-free, civil place for fans of Van?s RV kitplanes to virtually socialize,? or not? How about some friendly, mutual respect for fellow VAFer?s views and airplanes out there? Learn from Others, Provide Useful Information, Socialize, Be Friends, Enjoy Building and Flying! Isn?t that what VAF, and RVs, should be about?

It All Depends

On my IO-360 CSP -8A I put the battery on the forward firewall since I didn't relish the idea of stuffing mysel into the rear fuselage to service it. After flying, discovered there is merit for putting it aft for C.G. I currently use two 25 lb shot bags in the aft baggage compartment for ballast. Works fine. Unless I have King Kong stuffed in to the back seat, I can't exceed the aft C.G. limit.

Decided to go with fuzes vice circuit breakers (no regrets) and put the fuze panels in the forward baggage well. Putting them on the aft side of a dropable door on the aft fwd baggage bulkhead was probably a better idea, but at the time, didn't think I had the room.

Don't miss the forward well baggage capability.

Hey we all post our personal experiences so current builders can make
judgements of their own. Think we should read beyond a few words.

I've been flying my -8A four years now, and these are MY opinions on
MY airplane for MY mission. I use the airplane for travel. It has an
O-360 CS and the battery on the firewall. For solo flight, my tool
bag, survival kit and oxygen bottle are in the rear baggage compartment
and the solo CG is within Van's nosewheel weight recomendations.
When my wife and I travel together, I use every nook of both forward
and rear baggage space for stuff. The forward baggage footwell
section is perfect for the tool bag, canopy cover and other odds and
ends but still leaves the upper section for a wheeled duffle. Of course
the rear baggage is full of my wife's stuff. The great thing about the
RV-8 is the ability to move weight forward or aft for CG.
But for us, there still isn't enough baggage space. YMMV

Bill Palmer said:

+1 for Tim, Bird, and Pat

-1 for Andy and Jon (?tragic? ?spoiled? ?well said? ???).

IMHO: There?s too much trashing of ?other? VAFer?s ideas, questions, and airplanes on VAF these days. How about just an objective, supportive response regarding the pros and cons of using, or not using, the 8/8A?s forward baggage well for something other than baggage as designed? (Andy, the second part of your post is helpful, but your first sentence is clearly a negative opinion . . . how about removing the negative next time?) How about some related links (below)? Then the builder has some information so they can make their own decision about how they want to build their RV.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=2617&highlight=baggage

http://www.romeolima.com/RV8/Electrical.htm

I would also add that the very-lightweight LiFePO4 batteries are a new consideration when it comes to battery location.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=77016&highlight=LiFePO

Bottom Line: Is VAF a ?stress-free, civil place for fans of Van?s RV kitplanes to virtually socialize,? or not? How about some friendly, mutual respect for fellow VAFer?s views and airplanes out there? Learn from Others, Provide Useful Information, Socialize, Be Friends, Enjoy Building and Flying! Isn?t that what VAF, and RVs, should be about?

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Sorry Bill, not backing down. Somebody has to counter the "advice" given on the web sometimes. Van has designed great airplanes, I've built a lot of them. Every single time that I've decided to do something different from the plans it has come back to haunt me, in that I've had to compensate for it in some other area. That then results in even more time and "re-engineering" to make stuff work out. The planes in my signature line are not for bragging, it's to let people know I've MADE LOTS OF MISTAKES!!!!!
Of course I could just say "what a novel idea, go for it"! Not!
Stick to the plans and you'll fly sooner.
Sorry if I hurt some feelings, I guess I've been hanging around Kahuna too much lately!

fwd baggage

Tim
Just because someone has built a lot of airplanes doesn't make them an expert. There have been lots of airplanes built quickly, usually for a profit, that aren't anything to write home about. The slow, careful, proud, one-off builder is usually the one that takes home awards, (which I could care less about, but do respect). When I built my RV8 a long time ago, I wanted a light, aerobatic machine with a 180 HP engine and a fixed pitch metal prop. I was trying to get it to fit the requirements for a "Recreation Pilot", as they were back then. With that 180HP/fixed pitch requirement, I was looking at a tail heavy machine. I didn't want a battery hanging off the firewall in the engine compartment(bad idea). So I installed the battery in the lower area of the forward bag hole, as you suggest. Even then I was aft CG with a heavy rear seat pax. I ended up putting all of the heavy electrical stuff in there as well as an 8lb. Halon bottle (Stroud). A small service door to check Halon pressure and hook up jumper cables to the Odysee battery was added to the cover over the area to leave a flat floor. I wanted the Halon and it all fit's real nice. That insured I would never be aft CG solo (I'm 200 lbs.and always have survival gear in the aft). The remaining area is plenty big enough for a couple of soft bags. I actually rarely use the front pit unless we have a lot of stuff. It's easier to reach behind the rear seat than run around to the front for me. If I'm solo, I strap my bag to the pax seat.
The fun of building an airplane is to make it the way you want it, within reason. Stick to the plans when it comes to engineering considerations, unless your qualified to change them, but make the little changes that suit your needs. Make it "your airplane", and don't listen to self proclaimed experts(including me).
By the way, thank you for your service!

Tim: I agree and I "spoiled" mine as well, with a lot of electrical devices and a battery! Works for me.

I put my VPX in there....you can imagine my shock to find that I've ruined my plane. I am glad we caught this early though. Now I can just cut the fuse up for scrap and start over...it would have been far more difficult later.

Since we were talking about Mr. Thocker here I'll have to jump in and say that IMO his airplanes ARE very nice and that (as for me)....I do consider Jon to be an expert on the models he's built and would solicit his advice in a heartbeat, as long as he didn't criticise me . On the other hand I've seen (as you mention) multlple builders punch out some of the biggest klunkers in town .

The above said, providing info that helps the OP is always a plus.

Regarding the 2nd part of that paragraph, this is sometimes very true...the slow proud builder really puts together a beauty....but I've seen more bad than good. That said, occasionally.....someone can build a second, third, or even a 12th airplane rather quickly and still be able to 'write home' about it .

I totally agree with the last part of your post. There are more experts on any given topic that we can shake a stick at. Many of them are getting ready to order the kit, or still working on their first elevator....and we all KNOW these folks are experts because they have thousands of posts....right ? I get tons of calls every week.....literally.....I always tell folks to read between the lines and to research who's advice they're following.....this is advice that was given to me back in the 'yahoo groups days'.

Making 'the little changes' that suit your needs is very well put. That's what makes it 'your airplane'. I'll simply add that one should look at every part they build and ask themselves....'is this the best I can do'. If the answer is 'yes'....then put it on the airplane.

As for putting the battery in the foward baggage compartment. I'd do my best to work around that idea. Sleep on it and see what you can come up with .

I hope I was nice enough in my reply . I agree that we could use more of that....and I know I probably slip more than most .

cjhukill said:

Tim
Just because someone has built a lot of airplanes doesn't make them an expert. There have been lots of airplanes built quickly, usually for a profit, that aren't anything to write home about. The slow, careful, proud, one-off builder is usually the one that takes home awards, (which I could care less about, but do respect).

The fun of building an airplane is to make it the way you want it, within reason. Stick to the plans when it comes to engineering considerations, unless your qualified to change them, but make the little changes that suit your needs. Make it "your airplane", and don't listen to self proclaimed experts(including me).
By the way, thank you for your service!

Click to expand...

Helpful Information

Jon, I don?t think it?s about ?backing down.?

I would suggest it is about providing helpful information rather than negative judgments.

Certainly, experienced builders who want to counter what they consider to be bad ?advice? on VAF should do so; particularly if it is a safety issue. Otherwise, builders should be free to explore their own ideas, exchange information with other builders, consider builder advice and experience (yours included), weigh the pros/cons, and make their own decisions without being criticized for it. As you can see, several builders have elected, with adequate rationale, to use the forward battery well for something other than baggage. In other words, they have not strictly followed Van?s plans. That may be wrong in your opinion, and it may go against what you have learned, but to judge, or endorse, that their aircraft are inferior (spoiled; tragic) as a result is clearly going too far.

Help is one thing; criticism is quite another . . . I believe that is why Tim reacted the way he did.

RV8 Battery Location and my Dos Centimos....

My RV-8 has been flying since Mar 2008. I ended up putting my battery on a mounting platform attached to the floor in that small "well" in the forward baggage compartment. Others have too. Just adding another data point to all the bean counters out there. Works great, easy to attach charger to when needed, etc. My battery is the Odessy PC-680 like hundreds of others have used. This battery weighs 15 pounds. Maybe folks using bigger batteries like Gills and Concords have to travel another route.

I worked the CG numbers (a long time ago) using the PC680 and locating it on the firewall, in the well (my choice), and in the rear baggage area as can be used according to the plans. It didn't really change my CG that much in the long run. It's 15 pounds again. I was more concerned with running a 2 gauge battery line all the way back to that baggage area, but again that was my worry, not anybody elses. I was able to use much shorter wire runs using the big stuff, 2 gauge wire. Like others have posted, I wasn't happy with the battery forward of the firewall so I didn't put it there. Those that have theirs forward of the firewall, great. That works too. Heck just put it somewhere. My whole forward baggage area well is my "E&E" compartment. Big airplane drivers know what that means. My master relay is mounted on Fwd gear tower and there are other things in there as well. Cool beans.

I am going to side with those one or two individuals that kind of returned fire to "Mutha" about the perceived snide comments from those of us that chose to do things a little different. It's been discussed on these forums many times. How far do we wander from the plans, etc when we are building an experimental aircraft to begin with. I have never second guessed the wonderful engineers at Vans Aircraft and know several of them to include the now departed Kruger. I could bring up as a point all those 8 builders who Sika'ed their canopies to the frame as opposed to the factory prescribed method of using the called for pop rivets. That's deviating, isn't it. But I dont care about that. If it works for all those that glued, great. Hopefully, point made.

Final point about that PC680 battery. Man, where have you been all my life. Greatest battery they ever invented. Been in there since 2008 and still cranks like a Kansas tornado. I love it. Oh and one more data point about my RV-8, CG, and the battery location. I'm running an IO-360 with the Hartzell BA prop on it. Yep, it's on the Fwd end of the envelope when I'm solo, but it's more than doable on my airframe. With a pax in the backseat, it's golden and I love the way it feels. Keep banging those rivets and build the plane YOU want, not what others tell you to build. Knowledge is king. Fly on..

To those who have taken offence at my wording, I apologise. The words I used were strong, but they were prefaced with 'Personal opinion, but it is, to me' which I note the knockers have not requoted

So I never said the aircraft were "tragic" "spoiled", I said in my opinion they were i.e. if they were to be my aircraft to design / fly / sell / buy. My opinion, clearly stated as such, and no more (or less) valid than any other opinion here.

If you have good reasons to fit the battery / electrics there, then fine. Please view the comments in light of the OP's request for info. To put the battery in this location has some clear engineering / building benefits at build time. Life changes when suddenly it is a flying / touring aircraft, and I was trying to put to the OP this "option", IMHO (and only my opinion!) needs careful thought / strong justification.

Moving on:

I put the battery on the forward firewall since I didn't relish the idea of stuffing mysel into the rear fuselage to service it. After flying, discovered there is merit for putting it aft for C.G. I currently use two 25 lb shot bags in the aft baggage compartment for ballast

Click to expand...

echos my point to an extent. What seems a rational decision at build time might not seem the same in a flying RV? On this specific point I would also add:

1. At each Annual, to carry out a decent inspection, I (and only I!!) think you really need to remove the aft baggage panels to inspect the bellcrank, and also rear fuselage. I know some fit a "hatch" to inspect the bellcrank, but to me I'd rather go further and inspect all I can.
2. Once you have done this, "servicing" the rear battery is easy - after all, what "servicing" does it need? It either works or does not, and if does not, I presume it is coming out!

I'll agree that we need to keep things "sociable", but we also need to advocate strong advice where merited - the reader can then balance that against people with the opposing view. In this case the aspect is not safety related, but there have been advocates of "mods" on here of dubious safety merits, and it is, often strongly worded, opposing posts that put this in balance, and which I have often learned from

So maybe instead of of "quoting" Andy and saying "well said", I shoulda said, "his opinion has merit".

Taking away the ability to move a "grossed out" RV's CG from the extreme aft position is a compromise!

Those of us that have "explored" the flight characteristics at the extreme aft end of the envelope and beyond usually caution our friends to stay away from aft cg's.

Of course you tested your plane at the aft cg limit, did you happen to notice that although the dynamic stability in pitch was positive, the phugoid lasted a lot longer?

What do you think happens to that phugoid with CG's aft of the limit? At best the airplane becomes neutrally stable in pitch. That means the nose stays at the pitch attitude you put it, instead of seeking it's "trim" speed.
This means you get no feedback in the stick when you inadvertently get to slow!
Of course we all perform a weight and balance check before each flight, don't we?
Subsequent owners don't get the benefit of the experience gained during "envelope" testing during phase 1.
20 lbs. of stuff that could go forward of the CG that must now go way aft of the CG MEANS A LOT!!!!

Oh, and Thanks Rick!

Interesting thread.

I've been thinking firewall with the battery for CG purposes with a light weight Barrett engine and Catto prop. I've run the numbers and know that's where it belongs, certainly not in the aft location or there will be ballast in the forward cargo bin.

But I am rethinking the battery in the lower forward bag area instead of firewall for this reason. The firewall area with the 8 is limited in area, the battery up there is crowded. Also the battery would prefer a cooler environment for sure. For ease of maintenance, the master and starter relays could go in the bag area also.

Food for thought inspired by this thread....thanks.

By the way, I wired and tested the fuel pump yesterday, it works.

Reply to all the previous replies....

Just a reply to my previous replies. And to post #18 in particular. I in no way profess to being an RV-8 building expert. I have built exactly ONE RV in my lifetime so far. I hope to try the RV-14 someday and become a repeat offender like many others. I sought council many times during the build of my aircraft. I always tried to understand the risk inherent in this type of project. Heck, I even built my own engine by Superior Air Parts, and in my garage, not the build school. I said before, Knowledge is King. I sought to learn everything I could about building my aircraft. Got that attitude and discipline from flying big airplanes for 24 years for the Air Force. That said.

The original poster asked about putting his battery in the fwd baggage well and was looking for input from others who have traveled that route. Opinions may differ and then some, but I'm just sticking to honoring his original post and answering his question.

I put my PC-680 in that fwd well area with NO problems. I did a slow build so I had access to that whole floor area for riveting purposes. No CG problems. I have never tested my airframe at extreme aft CG to experience aft CG phugoids or whatever. I'll take the word of those who have and keep mine in the middle of CG range as best I can. As previously posted, when solo, I'm close to the forward end and that thumps me on three point landings, but I'm a wheel lander anyway. Plus, I think the 8 just likes to wheel land better than 3 point. YMMV.

When dual with a pax, that moves my CG somewhere aft of the middle of our RV-8 range. Remember, we have only about 8 inches of range or there abouts anyway. And I said "there abouts", so stay cool, it's in the book and on board all the time since its required as part of "AROW". Actually, my setup helps me to be able to put even more goodies in the back. And we can balance it out with our blessed fwd baggage compartment that only us 8 guys get. I use that one all the time on my cross countries. I've been across the entire US seven times loaded to the gills with the misses in the back with no problems. My two wings cursed at me very loud one time taking off out of Rock Springs, WY. But it was a warmer day and I was reintroduced to density altitude with some humor to go with it as I crow hopped a time or two before she flew, but no balance problems.
I'm a little versed at the whole weight/CG thing big or small, having flown both the C141 and C17A cargo planes for the Air Force as a pilot. And I have the sore butt to prove it.

My point, fwd baggage well works great, it's just behind where Vans says to put the battery on firewall. Continue to ping the RV-8 community and see what others have done. We are all out here to answer these questions. Thocker and Gray are obviously gurus at their craft and are multiple repeat offenders, but there are other ways to skin the cat. And I'm sure they would agree with that statement. Have a fine RV day ladies and gentlemen.

+1 RVJeff,

PC680 on firewall just ahead of the fwd baggage well where all my non-panel mounted electronics are located - easy routing of wires from fuse box to battery, contractor, and such through the firewall. W&B is on the fwd edge when solo which is exactly as I wanted. Extreme aft CG maneuver stability is very weak but has nothing to do with the OPs question. Put your battery wherever you want and do what you have to do to make your CG fall out where you like it. Plenty of room for hauling stuff around in front and back.

Options

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in with their thoughts. I realize with the heavier engine options available, aft is probably better, as well as used with a dual battery electrical system. My question focused on how to mount it in the fwd well, not if. Upon further reflection, I think I need to decide on an engine (which is what's been keeping the finishing kit at Van's vs in my garage as well!) before finalizing this part of the fuse. There are plenty of other things to work on, just was going to do this so I could close up the fwd bottom and side skins and call the 'canoe' more complete. Patiently waiting for Mistral to get back into business in the meantime. Sorry that the thread turned a tad adversarial, but good information about a multitude of other things gleaned in the process. The work continues!

Gus