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Big Change for Sun n Fun

Won't affect me. I quit going to S&N the last time the controllers tried to kill me!
And this was just after a fatal accident the day before and another major accident that morning. From 1984 to about 2001, S&F was MY fly-in. It has changed, and not for the better!!!!!
 
Not a good thing

This can't be a good thing. I love kids but they tend to like to stand on parts of the airplane that shouldn't be stood on and you can't count on the parents watching them. I'm sure someone will go home with a broken airplane.
 
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the airplane count continue's to dwindle at this show. They may get more of their crowds back, but how many owner/builder's are going to want the uninitiated crawling around their pride and joy?

:rolleyes:
 
Same as OSH?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this new policy the same as what has been going on at OSH. I've had my plane up there the last three years, and haven't noticed any restrictions on who comes up to look at the planes.

Nathan Larson
N217JT RV9E 600 + hours of smooth fun!
 
I get enough of the touchy-feely crowd at Oshkosh. Too bad they are letting the S&F go that route. Once they anger enough pilots, there won't be any planes for the morons to paw over. I'm to the point now that I don't think I'll fly my RV to Oshkosh anymore, either. If I do, it will only be for a few days.

Where does that guy get off thinking all the volunteers are going to protect the planes. Mostly, volunteers are busy doing their primary function. How many are actually devoted to watching the planes. The plane watcher volunteers at Oshkosh are far and few between and many are not watching closely enough or assertive enough to really protect the planes.

I wonder what the other unannounced surprise?

Roberta
 
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robertahegy said:
I get enough of the touchy-feely crowd at Oshkosh. Too bad they are letting the S&F go that route. Once they anger enough pilots, there won't be any planes for the morons to paw over. I'm to the point now that I don't think I'll fly my RV to Oshkosh anymore, either. If I do, it will only be for a few days.

Roberta

Wow, that is a great way to attract more folks to the aviation world. Just remember, there are alot more of the touchy-feely morons than there are of us perfect pilots. We need to be doing all we can to encourage more folks to take the leap into aviation. Yes, measures need to be taken to ensure the safety of both our planes, and of the people near them. I think this can be done without treating the folks like the "unwashed masses".

Nathan Larson
N217JT RV9E 600+ hours of smooth fun
 
robertahegy said:
I get enough of the touchy-feely crowd at Oshkosh. Too bad they are letting the S&F go that route. Once they anger enough pilots, there won't be any planes for the morons to paw over. I'm to the point now that I don't think I'll fly my RV to Oshkosh anymore, either. If I do, it will only be for a few days.

Roberta
Calling the walking public morons is way overboard.
 
My reference to morons is limited to the spectators who do not respect other peoples airplanes. There are a lot of caring non aviation spectators. I apologize for not making myself clear on that. I do not, however, apologize to the morons who do take liberties with other's aircraft, and that includes some pilot/ builders I have swatted off my plane.

Roberta
 
I have always wondered what damage the Vans factory display aircraft suffer during each airshow. Or perhaps stuff left in the airplanes, things missing, swiches and dials all ****ed up, etc... Vans is very generous about allowing people to climb all over their planes. I bet they have some stories!
 
casper said:
Calling the walking public morons is way overboard.
I see morons. All the time. They're everywhere!! ;) Even at airshows, pulling, pushing and poking. A buddy of mine caught someone trying to climb into his Stearman at Ellington one year.
 
In my opinion, flyins are wonderful gatherings and they do allow non-pilots to see what is really going on in our world of airplanes, both experimental and others.
However, I have stopped going to most flyins because the main attraction, we builders and our planes, do not get the respect we deserve.
First of all, we supply the draw and they charge us to bring our planes. We should either get in free or at least get discounted rates.
Secondly, people treat our planes as if they are disposable toys that they are free to do with as they please, since they paid to get in and look at them. I have seen parents directing their kids to hang from either side of a prop while they took pictures. Not to mention setting them on wings for more pictures, etc., etc. (It's bad enough that some of our own ranks, other builders, are discourteous enough to lean on and scratch canopies with their rings, watches, etc.)
I will go to OSH because it is overall the best fly in there is, but it is turning into a big business thing, too. That's too bad because it was once a wonderful place for pilots and builders to visit...still is...but not the same as it was back in the 80's.
For me, LOE, and other smaller RV flyins, are the best flyins going!
 
Just don't understand

Many people just don't understand that these are not toys, they don't realize the amount of effort and money that go's into a machine that flies, and flies fast! The problem is that there are many people that are careful and watch there kids but it doesnt matter whether its aircraft or your nice car,,, some people just don't know not to touch the things that are not threes.

Adam Silverstein
Finnish RV-8
RV-4 For Sale
(908) 803-8301
 
When they cut the air races

When Sun 'n' Fun cut the air races in 2005 it became just another place to go and stand around for hours protecting my plane without enjoying it. I think if I lived in the area and just drove over to see it one day it might be satisfying. Seriously the most satisfying activities for me were washing and waxing the plane each day, putting the cover on it when they closed the tiedown area at show time and heading to the motel, and finding a new restaurant to try each night. I think if you went there as part of the Van's team and had a meaningful function to perform it would be satisfying.

Bob Axsom
 
My enjoyment (and I suspect that of other pilots) is getting up close, enjoying the detail of the paint, the attention to the interior, or the goodies in your panel. But I also respect folks property. Not everyone is that way. Especially non-pilots.

I totally agree with the other comments here that your sacrifice in showing off your plane may also have an influence in drawing in those non-pilots... and giving them the desire to learn more... and maybe become one of us.

I think that putting barricades/rope to keep the general public an arms length away from the closest part of the plane accomplishes our goal of letting the general public see our craft. THEN provide a "pit" or "Back-Stage" pass as it were for the pilots or others willing to pay a few extra bucks for the privilege of getting behind the rope and up close.

Many airshows I have attended are free to the public. I'd be willing to pay $10 or $15 for the ability to be behind the ropes, and more free to see, discuss and photograph. Definitely DON'T charge the aircraft exhibitors!


dj
 
Saw it happen...

(not at SnF, but at a fly-in where public was allowed on the flightline)
...I was standing about a hundred feet from my RV-6 and Ross Burgess' plane when a 'non-aviator' lifted up his son and placed him on Ross' wing so he could peak in the cockpit. The boy was 'kinda' close to the black wing walk strip - not on it.

Wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't been standing right there!

:eek: ,
dr
 
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airventure '03

I remember arriving opening day at oshkosh and there to my amazment was
Bil(?)Wright's "H-1" (replica) Racer standing there...no chains, no rope, no tape surrounding it. No security. I slipped off my jacket (with the brass zipper) and was all over it, checking it out! The next day it was well roped off. I think the solution is education. These are our babies and there is an aughful lot of hours that go into building and finishing these aircraft. Education, some people learn fast than others. :)
 
Same as OSH

I agree. How is this different from OSH? I also agree that it is tough to constantly keep an eye on things. I don't see this as a huge issue. If necessary, I'm not opposed to slapping the shiite out of parent who doesn't watch their little tricycle motors running around the aircraft.

As Mel noted, I'd be more concerned with the overall air traffic system there.

I should also not that a few years ago there was a RV6 that had an aileron damaged by another plane. The person never came forward to report the damage.


rvatornate said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this new policy the same as what has been going on at OSH. I've had my plane up there the last three years, and haven't noticed any restrictions on who comes up to look at the planes.

Nathan Larson
N217JT RV9E 600 + hours of smooth fun!
 
I should not be revealing this secret, but now that I am going to be building a -8, I guess I can let yall in on it.

The Cardinal group has been flying into Winter Haven for a number of years. The hotel/motel rooms are cheaper, there are no crowds,and the airfield is secured. You can rent a small car and it is only a short drive down to SNF, This works unless you like to camp, in that case you would want to fly into SNF. But then you will be there with your plane all day.
 
Scary Moron Act

At a small airshow in Upstate NY a few years back my friend & I were coming back to his displayed 7AC Champ just in time to find a Father who had placed his very young daughter on top of the cowling with her legs hanging over the front air intakes as he was attempting to turn the prop vertical so she could put a leg on either side and then peak around the prop for a cute picture. Just putting a kid up on the cowling is bad enough but I still get shivers when I think of what could have happened if one of the mags had a bad ground. I know we can beat this subject to death here either for or against the general public getting close to our planes but it only takes one inconsiderate person (read moron) as my experience shows to create a really bad day.
NYTOM
Tom Norwood
RV-6A N822PM (res)
Still pounding away
 
It happened to me!!

Flew into a nice little airshow one nice Saturday. OK, all is going well now. Yes, it was sunny so people found shade, especially for the little munchins. Here is where it started to get interesting. Found a family camped out using my wheel pants as seats....................Ask them (kinda) to remove themselves from the improvised seats. Looked back, and I mean within a minute, to find them placing their backsides on the seats.......I mean, MY WHEELPANTS again. Well, it had been a long day and the sun, along with this family had finally got too me. I ask the lady where her car was parked. She replied defensively, why. I told her I was going to go out to the parking lot and and plop myself on her rooftop. She gathered the children up and stormed off muttering deragatory comments about me to her rug rats. With that said, that is the only time I truly got mad at anyone at an airshow. Yes, I do feel a responsibility to exhibit a gracious and understanding nature to those less informed about airplanes. Remember, airplanes are so unnatural for many. They are simply amazed. Keep a good head on your shoulders and respond nicely...........that is unless they sit on your wheelpants........then fire back:)

Yep, I'll be at SNF with stacks, yellow tape, lawn chair, sunscreen and a weapon of choice. I'll wait until the airshow starts and they drive the masses from the experimental parking to a point behind the fence, to do my walking. I still kinda like the place.
 
BlackRV7 said:
Flew into a nice little airshow one nice Saturday. OK, all is going well now. Yes, it was sunny so people found shade, especially for the little munchins. Here is where it started to get interesting. Found a family camped out using my wheel pants as seats....................Ask them (kinda) to remove themselves from the improvised seats. Looked back, and I mean within a minute, to find them placing their backsides on the seats.......I mean, MY WHEELPANTS again. Well, it had been a long day and the sun, along with this family had finally got too me. I ask the lady where her car was parked. She replied defensively, why. I told her I was going to go out to the parking lot and and plop myself on her rooftop. She gathered the children up and stormed off muttering deragatory comments about me to her rug rats. With that said, that is the only time I truly got mad at anyone at an airshow. Yes, I do feel a responsibility to exhibit a gracious and understanding nature to those less informed about airplanes. Remember, airplanes are so unnatural for many. They are simply amazed. Keep a good head on your shoulders and respond nicely...........that is unless they sit on your wheelpants........then fire back:)

Yep, I'll be at SNF with stacks, yellow tape, lawn chair, sunscreen and a weapon of choice. I'll wait until the airshow starts and they drive the masses from the experimental parking to a point behind the fence, to do my walking. I still kinda like the place.


Why can't the Rv guys and gals get together and have plane guard duty.. ? in addition to snf security?
 
RV505 said:
Why can't the Rv guys and gals get together and have plane guard duty.. ? in addition to snf security?

In an informal way, we do...

Every time I hang around beside my airplane or walk the flightline at a show, I keep my eyes open for things that just don't look *right*. If I see something like that, there are a quite a few fairly innocent sounding questions I can ask in order to get a better understanding.

The most common thing I've seen is someone trying to look into the cockpit of an airplane with a closed canopy. The interested party is often leaning against the airplane, with a hand cupped against the window and a camera swinging somewhere in the vicinity. I try to politely point out that these airplanes are labors of love and the owner probably won't appreciate paint scratches from a belt buckle or a scratched canopy from a ring, watch, or camera. That usually has the desired effect, which is "Look but don't touch"

The bottom line is that most airshow crowds are good people who wouldn't intentionally hurt your airplane, they just need a little non-confrontational education.

Besides, after seeing innumerable careless linemen do their thing at various FBO's, I have a far greater fear of them than of people attending a fly-in.
 
Teamwork

I agree... teamwork is the best... if we can use a combination of yellow tape and education for the masses not to mention a few well placed pilots with good eyes... we should be able to mitigate the unwashed masses sitting on wheelpants and moving props and letting their children jump up and down on elevators... saw it... almost fainted..... The General Public as a group are usually well meaning... but super uneducated in aviaiton... ... because they know no other way... They see a tail or a wing and they assume because it's an airplane it must be a solid strong surface... They just dont know. To be fair... I know we all think of the public as stupid on some count or another... but it's just like letting a bunch of kids into a toy store.... They've never seen such a sight and want to see everything and touch it all... I dont blame them... I drool over airplanes everyday...
Put my name on the line to babysit... I'll volunteer.... lets all take turns
:D
 
rvatornate said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this new policy the same as what has been going on at OSH.
Yes, it is the same, and that was my point about making the same mistakes that EAA made at Oshkosh. Many people have related various horror stories in this thread. As a long time Oshkosh volunteer, I've seen all of these and worse.

For all those with the "we should let people in to expose them to aviation" attitude, here's my problem with that. At some point, you have to decide, what is the purpose of large airshows (I'm refering to OSH, because it's what I'm most familiar with.) For the first 40-odd years of it's existance, the show was known as the "EAA Fly-In Convention." Emphasis on Convention, as in a gathering of members. Not an airshow/ trade show/ circus to attract the general public, but a gathering by and for the members. This was the (highly successful) formula that EAA used until the early 90s. Let's face it, what we do is so darn cool that the general public is more than happy to be allowed to come inside that gate and hang around near us, just watching us do what we do, through the fence. And they came in droves, larger droves than they do today.

Now, in the early 90s, with the leadership change at EAA, the philosophy began to change from that of a convention to that of a circus, to attract people. I think it was '98 that they coined the term "Airventure" to replace "Fly-In Convention." To this day, the use of the term convention is officially frowned upon by those in the head shed at OSH. They very purposefully began to change from a "gathering of members" to a "circus" and letting the general public into the flightline, which began in the mid 90s, was a natural and logical result of this mindset change.

Unfortunately, letting the unwashed masses play around the airplanes had predictable results. I know of many old-timers who flat out refuse to bring their airplanes to OSH any more because of the lack of decorum around planes. And that is really too bad. What is even worse is that EAA doesn't seem to care. Ever notice that the convention grounds are growiing, as the number of airplanes is shrinking? Concert stages and big Ford tents have replaced cool airplanes as the main attraction, all a result of the circus mentality.

Now, as it applies to SnF: I don't know much about the historical background of SnF. I've only been there once, in '05. In almost every respect, it is essentially a mini-OSH. They may or may not have the "convention" background that OSH does. If they have made a conscious decision to go from convention to circus, then so be it. They may attract more of the general public at the cost of less pilots/ planes. If this is what they desire, great. But OSH was, and hopefully will be again, first last and foremost a convention, and I for one really miss the convention atmosphere of OSH in the 80s.
 
A couple years ago our EAA Chapter supported a local airshow by displaying several aircraft. We kept at least one "guard" on duty at all times but it was not enough! At one point I had my canopy open in an attempt to keep handprints on the canopy to a minimum and later discovered that my airshow program (selling at $5) was gone! We had all the stories you hear, kids on wings and tail, pulling props, bent pitot tubes...

When I asked one kid to get off a plane his father ran up to me and said "It's OK, I fly a lot"!!! I responded "It is MY plane and it is NOT OK!" He got mad and left. Often, polilty asking people to stay back ws not enough, getting real nasty with them was the only way to get them to walk away with thier swinging cameras and lawn chairs.

On the other hand, I watched as two young kids ran towards my plane. The father called out for them to stop and they did. He then proceeded to take their drinks and ice creams away from them before they got within five feet of the aircraft. I walked over to the father (he had no aviation experience or connections), thanked him and shook his hand. I opened the airplane up and let the kids sit in it for pictures. It was the one bright spot of the weekend. Good parenting does still exist if you look long enough!

Scott A. Jordan
N733JJ
620 hours
KPOU
 
Example of good form

Larry Pardue took this picture at LOE '02.

His caption is: "Perfect, Hands Behind the Back Form, Looking at the RV-9"
RV-9.jpg

Larry Pardue photo.

Taken from this article.
 
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RV505 said:
Maybe a plane watch could be organized! :)
Been done. OSH started "Operation POP- Protect Our Planes" several years ago. These are volunteers that walk around on guard duty. Since they've been around, I can count on one hand the number of them I've seen them back in Area 51 (RV) parking, and I spend an awful lot of time back there.
 
DeltaRomeo said:
Larry Pardue took this picture at LOE '02.

His caption is: "Perfect, Hands Behind the Back Form, Looking at the RV-9"
RV-9.jpg

Larry Pardue photo.

Taken from this article.
It is a difficult thing. I think it is great to expose the public to little airplanes, and really enjoy answering questions but it tends to be just too painful.

I went to a little West Texas fly-in a few years ago where, as soon as I shut down the engine a 10 year old boy launched himself and landed on my horizontal stabilizer. Later that same day I was with Judy Stocks as she walked back to her 6A that had been left with the canopy back. As we approached, an adult was directing several cheerleaders, that were inside her airplane and sitting on the retracted canopy, for pictures. I don't know how she was able to maintain civility. I wouldn't have been able to.

Sun and Fun and Oshkosh are not for me, and most small fly-ins aren't either, but LOE is right up my alley.
 
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