VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.


Go Back   VAF Forums > Avionics / Interiors / Fiberglass > Glass Cockpit
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-14-2015, 11:02 AM
scrockard scrockard is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oregon City
Posts: 59
Default NavWorx ADS600-EXP and Class B airspace

The ADS600-EXP deal this week seems pretty good but:

How will an ADS600-EXP system with: NavWorx external mounted antenna and GTX-327 transponder show up on an ATC system as compared to a fully TSO’d ADSB-out system?

One of the technical FAA guys at KOSH last year was trying to warn me about the “quality” of the ADSB-out system and how they may show you differently on their systems based upon the performance. The point being communicated was you may be treated differently in airspace as a function of how you display (even if you have ADSB-out broadcasting enabled)...

Here are my concerns:
Sec. 91.227 Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out equipment performance requirements.

According to this requirement, we need to be looking at the following technical parameters when evaluating any purchases of ADSB out options:
SDA,SIL,NACP,NACV,NIC

(ADS600-EXP Specifications):
Quote:
The ADS600-EXP is a Remote Mount ADS-B Transceiver with UAT OUT & IN, for use by EXPERIMENTAL AND LSA AIRCRAFT ONLY - Not for use by Certified Aircraft..

Experimental and LSA aircraft equipping with the ADS600-EXP are "good-to-go" for entering airspace mandated to have ADS-B on 1/1/2020.

Complies with the ADS-B Final Rule Technical Amendment, dated 2/9/2015, affecting 14 CFR 91.225 (b)(1)(ii) which permits ADS-B OUT in the National Airspace with devices that meet the performance requirements of TSO-C154c.

Transmits SDA = 2, SIL= 3
I don’t see anything about NACp, NACv, NIC etc here? It all comes down to how good the GPS position source is doesn't it?
__________________
RV-9A - Oregon City, OR
flying since June 30,2018
2020 Dues paid

Last edited by scrockard : 02-14-2015 at 01:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-15-2015, 09:34 AM
scrockard scrockard is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oregon City
Posts: 59
Default

Note: there is an excellent thread that is showing how to obtain the accuracy report of installed ADSB equipment.

see http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=113529

I would like to see this accuracy report from the FAA on an ADS600-EXP prototype.

Since this isn't shipping yet, this would have to be a report on a prototype unit from NavWorx.
__________________
RV-9A - Oregon City, OR
flying since June 30,2018
2020 Dues paid
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-15-2015, 10:05 AM
maniago's Avatar
maniago maniago is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Bowie MD
Posts: 887
Default

Not really. Unless I'm mistaken, this is an "after the installation is complete" report. Doesn't help much to spend $5k or whatever, then get a report that tells you youre off the charts.

Kind alike buying any used piece of equipment without an 8130 or yellow tag etc....seems like Mr Reagan had it similar.... "Trust, but verify".
__________________
Mani
Busby MustangII (FoldingWing) Pending DAR.
Don't be a hater; I'm a cousin with thin wings!
N251Y (res)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-15-2015, 10:14 AM
rvator51's Avatar
rvator51 rvator51 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Peoria, AZ
Posts: 1,054
Default

It will be interesting to see. If it meets the TSO, then it should show up ok on the ATC system. The only difference would be the TSO paperwork. I am tempted to buy one at that price and just play with it.
__________________
Regards,

Thomas Velvick
Goodyear, AZ (KGYR)

2020 Donation sent.

N53KT RV-6a finished 2018, Flying
N7053L RV-4 Wife's RV
N56KT RV-4 Finishing
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-15-2015, 10:55 AM
Radomir's Avatar
Radomir Radomir is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,524
Default

The unfortunate part is that it CAN show up as "pass" on the FAA report (for the most part and at least 99% of time). Majority of the report is what the unit sent.. there's some position verification (using the radar) but the unit it free to send out any signal it wants. (ie fully compliant even when it's really not).

Another competitor sends out "unbelievable" numbers -- such as GPS "accuracy" that is 2 orders of magnitude more precise than Garmin 430W and SIL and SDA numbers that don't pass the smell test.. So the FAA report just shows that -- what the unit sent.. Doesn't actually mean those units meet the performance standards..

It's an "honor" system for the most part.. and some units may either abuse it or stretch the borders a bit with that.
__________________
Radomir
RV-7A sold
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-15-2015, 11:48 AM
scrockard scrockard is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oregon City
Posts: 59
Default

I am agreeing with most of these comments so far.

Since NavWorx has been in this market for a long time and they do have a TSO'd version, I assume that if they are making the
Quote:
Transmits SDA = 2, SIL= 3
in their specifications that they have completed at least the poor man's test on this particular unit (using the non-precise FAA report).

Also, I would venture to guess that the internal workings of this box are pretty similar to a much more expensive TSO'd version. Just a guess...

Is the internal GPS the same GPS source used in the TSO'd unit they sell??
This experimental unit looks like the same packaging as the TSO'd version...

Finally, isn't this price about what some ADSB-in only units are selling for? I'm sure NavWorx is thinking they are practically giving the model away at that price because it seems to pack so many features into one box.
__________________
RV-9A - Oregon City, OR
flying since June 30,2018
2020 Dues paid
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-16-2015, 11:34 AM
mdevans9 mdevans9 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hockessin,Delaware
Posts: 202
Default GPS Specs are different

The specs published on Navworx website are different for the -600BG with TSO GPS (-143dBm Tracking; -137dBm Acquisition) than for the -EXP (-156dBm Tracking; -144dBm Acquistion).

No idea what the numbers mean and if the difference is significant.

Regards,

Merrill
__________________
Merrill D. Evans
RV-7
N87EM
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-16-2015, 08:36 PM
scrockard scrockard is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oregon City
Posts: 59
Default

I like where you are going with the specification comparisons.

I found additional details for the certified external GPS in the ADS600-B installation manual. In this manual, the GPS has SBAS/WAAS features which appear to be missing on the uncertified GPS. There is nothing about WAAS performance on the ADS600-EXP that I can see either.

I also don't know enough about TSO and performance numbers to speculate much more...

Oh - and the price is now $729 today. lol!
__________________
RV-9A - Oregon City, OR
flying since June 30,2018
2020 Dues paid
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-16-2015, 09:38 PM
Neal@F14's Avatar
Neal@F14 Neal@F14 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Wichita Falls, TX
Posts: 2,182
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrockard

Oh - and the price is now $729 today. lol!
Webpage still says $699 but when you try to buy one it is $729. I was seriously interested in the device, but not anymore.
__________________
Neal Howard
Airplaneless once again...

Last edited by Neal@F14 : 02-16-2015 at 09:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-16-2015, 09:51 PM
scrockard scrockard is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oregon City
Posts: 59
Default

It appears that the claim of: Transmits SDA = 2, SIL= 3 is no longer on the site either....
__________________
RV-9A - Oregon City, OR
flying since June 30,2018
2020 Dues paid
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:39 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.