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View Poll Results: Do you use the IFR capability of your RV?
YES (file IFR) 239 73.09%
NO 88 26.91%
Voters: 327. You may not vote on this poll

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  #121  
Old 01-12-2021, 03:45 PM
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Plummit Plummit is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chattin35 View Post

I say that, and I'm not a risk averse person. I have ~1000 combat hours, 350+ skydives, a few BASE jumps, paragliding, etc. So, I'm no stranger to taking risks.
Paragliding? My my, you are a risk taker! Coming from a Hang Glider pilot... ;-)

-Marc
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  #122  
Old 01-12-2021, 05:52 PM
flyinhood flyinhood is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: 52F
Posts: 207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chattin35 View Post

Flying IMC in a single engine piston is like skydiving w/out a reserve parachute. It's fine until something goes wrong. And, it will. It's a matter of when, not if, if you do it enough. There's also that uncanny tendency for things to go wrong at the worst possible time.
Drama.

I have taught several Initial Instrument customers in RVs. Following gauges isn't the meat and potatoes of IFR. Decision making is. No one is suggesting flying RVs in Ice. IFR can be done very safely but with good Threat And Error Management.

I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Stuff I fly by (and try to teach):

-Have Personal Minimums

-Don't fly in convective activity.

-Don't fly in ice.

-Land with an hour of fuel.

-Always have an out.

-Proficiency Matters

I never flew combat or base jumped but flew cancelled checks and did charter work for a long time.
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RV-6, IO-320, Catto, G3X Panel (Thanks Walt!)

Last edited by flyinhood : 01-12-2021 at 07:39 PM.
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  #123  
Old 01-14-2021, 05:35 AM
Tram Tram is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Florence, AL
Posts: 652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chattin35 View Post
E
Flying IMC in a single engine piston is like skydiving w/out a reserve parachute. It's fine until something goes wrong. And, it will. It's a matter of when, not if, if you do it enough. There's also that uncanny tendency for things to go wrong at the worst possible time.
I agree with you..

I avoid SE piston night and hard IMC at all opportunities. Our -6 was IFR and we used it to get through layers/etc but I think the lowest I ever shot an approach in it was around 1,000'.

I don't mind if the bottoms are high enough that I can have some choices when I get through, but I'm not real big on flying a piston in solid IMC to 200'.

I'm starting an RV-8 and trying to decide what capabilities to put into it is a big question. I'd love to have LPV approach capability.
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  #124  
Old 01-14-2021, 07:00 AM
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airguy airguy is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garden City, Tx
Posts: 5,389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tram View Post
I'd love to have LPV approach capability.
Why? You just stated that you won't use it...
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Built an off-plan RV9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
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  #125  
Old 01-14-2021, 08:08 AM
andrewtac andrewtac is offline
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Friendswood TX
Posts: 315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chattin35 View Post
Ever experience unexpected icing? Forecasts (especially at altitude) are always accurate, right? Can you blast out of an unexpected layer of icing at 6000fpm for 20k feet like a jet? Hmmm...

Ever had your windscreen completely ice over? I have. It happened unexpectedly and took less than 10 seconds to be completely opaque. Couldn't see sh**. Good thing I was flying a jet and had heavy duty de-icing equipment.

Ever experienced spacial d? I have. Rolled out of a turn a little too fast in the clouds in a T-6 and the world kept spinning. I could barely see the panel. It took every ounce of will power and training I had to keep the plane flying. It was eye-opening.

Ever experience electrical failures? If not, you will. Better hope your back up battery (if you have one) lasts long enough to get to your alternate. Better hope you're not relying on a battery to power the ignition on that one precious engine.

Flying IMC in a single engine piston is like skydiving w/out a reserve parachute. It's fine until something goes wrong. And, it will. It's a matter of when, not if, if you do it enough. There's also that uncanny tendency for things to go wrong at the worst possible time.

I say that, and I'm not a risk averse person. I have ~1000 combat hours, 350+ skydives, a few BASE jumps, paragliding, etc. So, I'm no stranger to taking risks. Just be aware of the gamble you're making. I think many people severely underestimate it.

That said, I trust my -7 in IMC over any spam can.
I've had all the above, in a single engine jet, granted it had an ejection seat. The difference is in all those cases I would not have flown my airplane there, mine is for pleasure and self transport the other I was flying as my job; one was for killing the other for fun.
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  #126  
Old 01-14-2021, 08:12 AM
Tram Tram is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Florence, AL
Posts: 652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airguy View Post
Why? You just stated that you won't use it...
Where did I say I wouldn’t use LPV approach capabilities?
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  #127  
Old 01-14-2021, 08:41 AM
pecanflyboy pecanflyboy is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Granbury, Texas
Posts: 138
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I have an RV6 with a full IFR panel, G3X, GTN650xi, autopilot. I had to file IFR once in 2020 to depart a field with low ceilings. Enroute cleared to VFR, landed VFR. I only consider the use of IFR in my RV as almost a last resort. Without an autopilot, they are not a very stable IFR platform. It's pricey to keep the aircraft up to date with databases and pitot static check.

I consider it a VFR airplane, with IFR as a back up when there are few other alternatives.
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  #128  
Old 01-14-2021, 11:07 AM
Jeffkent Jeffkent is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinhood View Post
Drama.

I have taught several Initial Instrument customers in RVs. Following gauges isn't the meat and potatoes of IFR. Decision making is. No one is suggesting flying RVs in Ice. IFR can be done very safely but with good Threat And Error Management.

I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Stuff I fly by (and try to teach):

-Have Personal Minimums

-Don't fly in convective activity.

-Don't fly in ice.

-Land with an hour of fuel.

-Always have an out.

-Proficiency Matters

I never flew combat or base jumped but flew cancelled checks and did charter work for a long time.
One could be the most proficient instrument pilot on Earth, but single engine GA aircraft come with some big limitations. I wouldn’t want to fly in hard IMC unless I had redundant systems, backup instruments, and the ability to tank an engine and have plenty of time to select and glide to a suitable landing area once clear of the clouds. IMC at night would necessitate the ability to keep all instruments powered and easily glide to a lighted runway. Your list of personal limitations is spot on though.
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  #129  
Old 01-14-2021, 06:29 PM
flyinhood flyinhood is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: 52F
Posts: 207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffkent View Post
One could be the most proficient instrument pilot on Earth, but single engine GA aircraft come with some big limitations. I wouldn’t want to fly in hard IMC unless I had redundant systems, backup instruments, and the ability to tank an engine and have plenty of time to select and glide to a suitable landing area once clear of the clouds. IMC at night would necessitate the ability to keep all instruments powered and easily glide to a lighted runway. Your list of personal limitations is spot on though.
My personal IFR minimums with my RV:

No night night flight

Never over or through a ceiling of less than 1,000 AGL
(I've had stuck a stuck valve / it was VFR. The more time the better if one was engine out and gliding out the bottom of an overcast layer)

BTW: I thought this was a good vid and covers a lot of points brought up in this thread. I have forwarded it to a few IFR customers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-GTZEIV_uQ&t=2s
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RV-6, IO-320, Catto, G3X Panel (Thanks Walt!)
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  #130  
Old 01-15-2021, 07:22 AM
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Dugaru Dugaru is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Richmond VA, USA
Posts: 524
Default Those are good RV IFR minimums

I will in fact fly at night, but only in very reliable VMC.

I had an electrical failure at night on an instrument flight plan. It took out everything but my G5 (which kept running on the battery) and my iPad with Foreflight. So the safe completion of the flight was never in doubt. I remember thinking that my remaining instrumentation was a lot more than Lindbergh had.

But I was really, really glad I was in perfect VMC. I'm confident I could have gotten home in IMC even if I needed a full approach to minimums, albeit with a non-certified GPS source, but that would have been a QUITE a bit more exciting than I would have liked.

I also notice that I've been flying at night less often since that incident....

I canceled an OSH trip a few years back with good weather at both ends, because a big chunk of my route in between was low IFR. I think flying over really low ceilings is worse than flying over open water. I have zero interest in dealing with "clouds with hard centers," as the Brits used to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinhood View Post
My personal IFR minimums with my RV:

No night night flight

Never over or through a ceiling of less than 1,000 AGL
(I've had stuck a stuck valve / it was VFR. The more time the better if one was engine out and gliding out the bottom of an overcast layer)

BTW: I thought this was a good vid and covers a lot of points brought up in this thread. I have forwarded it to a few IFR customers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-GTZEIV_uQ&t=2s
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