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  #31  
Old 04-16-2010, 12:43 PM
WhiskeyMike WhiskeyMike is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvmills View Post
...but its also very much about developing a feel and an eyeball for where you are and how the airplane is gliding.
You are absolutely right Bob! Glider pilots are actually trained to develop this "feel and eyeball" perspective when the flight instructor covers the altimeter and requires that the student fly a safe pattern and landing solely based on their visual reference. Safely demonstrating this skill use to be a requirement for passing the glider-rating check ride (got mine in 1976, so this may have since changed), which means that most pilots can develop this skill set with a modicum of practice.

General observation - As others have pointed out the glide performance of airplanes that have lost power is not the same as when the power is simply pulled back to idle. In order to develop the correct visual skills/references I believe that its necessary to practice power off landing procedures with the aircraft configured to accurately simulate the REAL power off glide performance. IMO Doug R's recommendation to accomplish this in the Rocket Glider thread was a very good one. He suggested first going to 5000 agl above your airport of choice at high key position and pull the mixture to cutoff, then make your 360 degree turn noting the actual altitude at which you reach low key and the landing spot (you then have lots of altitude left over for restarting, or dealing with things if you can't). Once you know how much altitude you will really loose without power you can configure the plane with flaps and power to simulate the real power-out glide performance. Then practice actual high-low key maneuvers at lower altitudes in the "simulated" configuration.

I believe that practicing and developing these visual reference skills can make a real difference in affecting a safer outcome during an engine-out emergency. But folks may be lead down the path of false security unless they practice and develop these skills in a manner that accurately depicts what REALLY HAPPENS when things unexpectedly go quiet...

Maybe only worth 1.5 cents...
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Last edited by WhiskeyMike : 04-16-2010 at 12:51 PM.
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  #32  
Old 04-16-2010, 06:25 PM
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rvmills rvmills is offline
 
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Couple more thoughts, hopefully to add to the usefulness of the maneuver:

Say you have not had a full-blown engine failure, but the motor is shakin' or noisy or otherwise sick and not puttin' out...or you're just worried its just a matter of time before it goes quiet. This pattern is a great way to stay at a safe altitude, and not give up any altitude you may wish you had back (should the motor quit) until you have the field made.

Its really meant to be another arrow in your quiver, rather than the way to do it, nor is it suggested that you fly around to hit a high key in every situation. Given you could be anywhere in relation to a suitable landing site when an engine quits, depending on your position and altitude, you may still end up entering the landing pattern on downwind (perhaps hit a low key), you may end up lined up on a nice base, or you could be straight in. If straight in, and too low for a hi key entry but too high for a normal straight in, then s-turns and slipping may be the way to go. Those judgement calls are where practice develops the scan for the key altitudes and the eyeball for the look and feel of how its going. But there's certainly no one right answer.

Gary, I agree with your thoughts on not trying to stretch the glide. Another tid-bit from my C-150 engine-out was that we had just completed ground reference maneuvers and a simulated engine failure (go figure!), and were climbing out to do stalls and slow-flight. The engine just sounded loud, and NQR (not quite right), so we climbed for altitude before turning for home plate (on the other side of the SF Bay). It let go at 2500', right over Fremont Sky Sailing (the no-longer-there glider field). In the first 180 deg of turn, I saw Fremont (also no longer there) airport ahead, and considered going for it, since it was not private, and it was all paved, versus the 1/2 paved, 1/2 dirt of Sky Sailing. A little voice popped up in my 400 hour, new CFI head and said, "your instructor taught you, you can land anywhere in an emergency". Good instructor, good words of wisdom, and I'm glad I didn't try to stretch it! Of course the same instructor (then boss) had a very funny look on his face when my student and I jumped out of the 172 we hitched a ride in back to Palo Alto!

Sorry for the continued hangar flying...just fun to do. Hope the discussion is helpful!

Cheers,
Bob
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  #33  
Old 04-16-2010, 08:19 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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I was up playing with the -8 this evening, and did a best-glide 360 with the engine at idle - simulating the turn from High-Key to touchdown. Lost about 1800' total in the manuever - felt I had a little reserve. Probably could do it with 1500'

(Far better than the "Heavy Glider" - High Key is about 50,000' - Low key about FL350....)
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  #34  
Old 04-17-2010, 12:00 AM
Finley Atherton Finley Atherton is offline
 
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On my aircraft I have found that I can closely simulate the real dead engine, full coarse sink rate by leaving the mixture rich (engine producing power), the throttle at idle and the prop to full coarse then in 1 1/4 turns.

Fin
9A
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  #35  
Old 04-17-2010, 12:34 AM
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rvmills rvmills is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finley Atherton View Post
On my aircraft I have found that I can closely simulate the real dead engine, full coarse sink rate by leaving the mixture rich (engine producing power), the throttle at idle and the prop to full coarse then in 1 1/4 turns.

Fin
9A
Interesting Fin...sounds pretty logical. Will have to try it as well...thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
I was up playing with the -8 this evening, and did a best-glide 360 with the engine at idle - simulating the turn from High-Key to touchdown. Lost about 1800' total in the manuever - felt I had a little reserve. Probably could do it with 1500'
Sounds like a pretty good ball park for a 3, 4, 6, 7, or 8 & maybe a 10. Rockets perhaps a bit higher (1800-2000), and a 9 (maybe 10) perhaps a bit lower...mostly due to wing differences. I want to be careful not to overgeneralize...I haven't flown them all (yet!) and nothing like testing to see what works for each pilot/airplane combo, for sure. And weight and winds will have an impact too. Good place to start from during practice though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
(Far better than the "Heavy Glider" - High Key is about 50,000' - Low key about FL350....)
Can I try one of those...just one...that's it...I've been really good this year!

I know, keep dreamin'...perhaps if you can afford the gas to go up (I can't!), they might let you fly it on the way down!

Cheers,
Bob
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Last edited by rvmills : 04-17-2010 at 12:38 AM.
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  #36  
Old 04-17-2010, 09:09 AM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Oh - one additional piece of RV-8 data (O-360, carbed, Hartzell C/S Blended Airfoil....). In a steady-state glide at 95 knots, with the throttle at idle, the difference in sink rate between prop full forward and full aft is about 150 fpm. I got a sink rate with the prop full forward of 1150 fpm, and with it full aft of about 1000 fpm, wings level.

Paul
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  #37  
Old 04-17-2010, 02:49 PM
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pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
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Default Coarse pitch saved the landing today...

....after I decided to try a Low key approach at 800 AGL from downwind, abeam the threshold. The wind was blowing around 20 MPH, on my tail, on downwind, so I though about what was about to happen. Man, you get far down quickly so I turned in and lowered about half flaps and seemed to be crawling to the runway on final, so coarse pitch real quick, it felt like I added power! Never added more flaps and barely made it to the numbers, but good practise and an education on tail/headwinds.

Best,
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  #38  
Old 10-02-2021, 06:24 PM
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Aviator Aviator is offline
 
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Good old thread. I think all new ones here have to read.
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