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  #11  
Old 09-09-2021, 08:41 PM
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hgerhardt hgerhardt is offline
 
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Remember the 2nd prototype RV-10 had a Conti IO-360, so you might be able to get an engine mount for that from Van's. Not sure if the mods needed to fit that mount into a -7 would be worth it, but it might make a good starting point.
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  #12  
Old 09-10-2021, 05:56 AM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is online now
 
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Originally Posted by 6ato14a View Post
I meant to say google “liquid piston.” Similar to a Wankel but very interesting twist that you really need to look at to picture what they are doing. The one they have in a go cart is air cooled but can they make one with 200 hp air cooled. Heck can they even scale it up that much. Their web site looks like they have some small ones running or they are REALLY GOOD with photoshop.
Excuse me. Sorry. I have been following new engines and alternatives for 35 years since I graduated with a mechanical engineering degree. You say you will be dead by the time they perfect this X-engine by "liquidpiston". I looked it up based on your suggestion .... WOW so impressive all the claims.

"The X Engine from LiquidPiston is powered by the company’s innovative High Efficiency Hybrid Cycle (HEHC). This non-Wankle rotary engine has few parts and three combustion events per rotor revolution, resulting in tremendous power density."

"LiquidPiston’s rotary engines are the first disruption to engine technology in over a century."

Personally I see red flags going up, way way up. Yes they have "technical papers". Well there you go they have papers. As an Engineer that means little. They go to great lengths to call it rotary but say it is not a Wankel. OK. But I see similar issues that the Wankle suffers, mainly poor fuel economy and dirty emissions. Issues like apex seals (which of course they have solved) and very long flat combustion chambers, which produces poor combustion and high speed exhaust gas (loud and waste of energy) are also solved I guess? They don't seem to be going for aircraft as much as APU, but then show a model airplane. Hey this is "revolutionary" and "disruption technology", so it can do anything for everything apparently. I am excited...

We will all be dead before this happens.... Hope I am wrong but I have seen this over and over. They have invented the greatest engine of all time? Sure. There is really nothing new under the sun in thermodynamics, ie #too good to be true #no free lunches. BTW did you know the authorities who are ruling now and forever more like it or not, if they have it their way, say NO MORE fossil fuels. We are going all electric by unicorns and rainbow power even if it kills us. Which I think is the idea. So the X-engine is not looking low emissions green even in the slightest. So strap on a Lycoming to your sky-scooter and enjoy it while you can.
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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 09-10-2021 at 06:07 AM.
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  #13  
Old 09-10-2021, 07:24 PM
David Z David Z is offline
 
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Location: Thunder Bay Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot View Post
Except for the "Rockets" that stuff a Lyc 540 into their plane most of the alternatives fly slower, are heavier and again not as valuable in used market. May be most important I would say they are also less reliable. So who wouldn't want that? I wouldn't. A Lyc sounds great. I have over 600 hours flying checks in a Seneca II with two TIO360 Continentals. The sound is not better. I will say the Continental would be smoother inherently. However a well built Lyc with balanced Prop and LORD engine mounts is plenty smooth.
That's the beauty of experimental aviation. We can build a plane to tinker with a one-off engine and "experiment" to see if we can make a ____ engine successfully power the aircraft. Then continue tinkering to improve it as much as one's ability allows. Most people, myself included, want a solid, proven and reliable engine, so stick with Lycoming. That's not to stop one from wondering or trying out a different option.

That's one of my "7 wonders of Van's Aircraft". Van's has been stubbornly loyal to Lycoming with one major exception (RV-12). That has dramatically increased demand for Lycomings and decimated the used engine market. To my feeble brain, I would have thought that more engine options would be beneficial to Van's since engine supply would be more broad and probably cheaper. A larger used engine market to tap into. Cheaper engines means more affordable airplanes and more airframe kits sold.

Continental makes great engines. Some would want a -470 in an RV-10 or the -360 Continental options for the 4/6/7/8/14. The IO-240 might work well in an RV-3 and RV-9. UL would be great to provide support to as well. New offering, but good factory support creates competition amongst engine manufacturers.

But what do I know, haha.
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  #14  
Old 09-20-2021, 11:49 AM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Z View Post
That's the beauty of experimental aviation. We can build a plane to tinker with a one-off engine and "experiment" to see if we can make a ____ engine successfully power the aircraft. Then continue tinkering to improve it as much as one's ability allows. Most people, myself included, want a solid, proven and reliable engine, so stick with Lycoming. That's not to stop one from wondering or trying out a different option.

That's one of my "7 wonders of Van's Aircraft". Van's has been stubbornly loyal to Lycoming with one major exception (RV-12). That has dramatically increased demand for Lycomings and decimated the used engine market. To my feeble brain, I would have thought that more engine options would be beneficial to Van's since engine supply would be more broad and probably cheaper. A larger used engine market to tap into. Cheaper engines means more affordable airplanes and more airframe kits sold.

Continental makes great engines. Some would want a -470 in an RV-10 or the -360 Continental options for the 4/6/7/8/14. The IO-240 might work well in an RV-3 and RV-9. UL would be great to provide support to as well. New offering, but good factory support creates competition amongst engine manufacturers.

But what do I know, haha.
1) I am not against experimentation or tinkering... Heck I experiment with my Scotch and Cigars all the time. However I am trying to help people. Seriously.

2) People can do as they like, but some people are working on propaganda "Lycoming" or "Continental" are OLD technology, automotive engines are MODERN and implied better. I would dissuade people of that false notion Lycs are inferior or old tech, for aircraft.

3) When you buy a Lycoming or TCM (Continental) you are not just buying an aircraft engine, you are buying processes, best materials, QC, publications, training, continuous improvements from millions of flight hours and most of all an engine SPECIFICLLY designed for aircraft.

4) Reno just ended and all race winners (almost all competitive planes) are Air cooled Lyc, TCM or Pratt & Whitney. Same with Red Bull Air Races (all Lycs). The only odd ball (besides the jet class and Unlimited with Merlin V12) was the Falconer V12 in a Thunder Mustang, which came in a distant 5th. The Falconer V12 is a special race engine, not mass produced car engine. The top three panes in the Ultimate Gold race were ROUND air-cooled. Miss America P-51 came in 2nd but was DQ'ed for flying too high and cutting pylon(s).

5) You acknowledge that tinkering is part of the package of using alternative engines. Agree. I like to fly and tinker with the airframe and engine installation, cooling, baffling, 4-into-1 headers, but not the core engine and prop itself.

6) Yes I'm into engine conversions. Conversion of $30K Into a Lyc, Go Fly Guy. However I do respect people who want to roll their own with a car engine or a Continental vs Lycoming. However I also want to warn people it is not for the faint of heart and it may not result (almost assured to not result) in superior performance or value. The MOST important is safety. Many Lycs once independent ignition and fuel system (Mags and mechanical fuel system) may not be electrically independent (ignition and fuel) anymore, as people add EI and EFI. Mechanically car engines are reliable. HOWEVER the Prop Speed Reduction (PSRU) are problematic and often mandate a fixed pitch prop or electric prop. I think both are way less desirable than a Constant Speed (CS) prop.

7) Van's Aircraft is stubbornly loyal to Lycoming? There is no stubbornness but just the best engine for "Total Performance". End of story. Also Van's is not going to supply multi cowls and engine mounts. Bad business. The RV-12 is a LSA with limits, so the Rotax is the better choice in the 100HP ball park. Personally I would use a O-200 (or IO-240) Continental. Rotax are very expensive. The Rotax Si915 is pushing $40,000. That is more than a 200HP Lycoming.

8) You make a great point however about supply demand. The EAB market made a demand for new engines to sell direct. I would add the STC market (Superior, Titan, ECI, Lyc, Thunderbolt) making Lycoming engines has kept cost way down and drove innovation in higher performance and aftermarket support in electric ignition and EFI.

9) Alternate aircraft engines, as you mention "Continental -470 in an RV-10 or the -360 Continental (as the subject of this thread) options for the 4/6/7/8/14. The IO-240 might work well in an RV-3 and RV-9." The problem is the Lyc -320 (150 to 170HP) and -360 (180 to 210 HP) and -540 (230-350HP) are hard to beat for the money, especially the 320. It is difficult to make a case for different engines, besides you dare to be different. In the case of the -470 they are long out of production. the IO-240 for me would be my choice for an RV-12 over a Rotax, if you can buy an IO240 for less than a O320. Then the RV-12 may not be an LSA anymore (in weight, speed). My pumped up 360 I built from a used engine for my RV-7 is my thing. I personally don't see a big reason to go TCM because the aftermarket for Lyc is better, support is better for EAB kit plane builders. I will say the TCM TIO550 with single control (prop, throttle, mixture) is impressive. I can't imagine what that cost. It is way more than a Lyc IO540 with mechanical FI.

10) If you are willing to make your own engine mount, cowl, adapt a PSRU (use great caution here), buy an alternative engine, prop, do it. However I repeat don't expect to be a Lycoming killer in performance or value. None of that bothers me (being slower, heaver, less resale) but SAFETY is my main concern. There are very safe conversions, but personally it is not my cup of tea. There are also bad engine conversions. We can reinvent the wheel but it will still be round and probably a Lycoming.
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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 09-23-2021 at 05:16 PM.
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  #15  
Old 09-20-2021, 03:28 PM
DennisRhodes DennisRhodes is offline
 
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Back to the OP's question on Cont IO 360 . We owned a Maule- M-5 at one time with a IO 360D 210 HP that had a CS prop, that model Maule was called a Lunar Rocket which it was.
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Last edited by DennisRhodes : 09-20-2021 at 04:07 PM.
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  #16  
Old 09-20-2021, 03:52 PM
Ralph Inkster Ralph Inkster is offline
 
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For anybody that has one of these engines & want's to glue it on their RV project - Have at it! I'd love to see the results of a well thought out & executed installation.

I would think a stretched fuselage would be needed to address CG issues, Continental style fuel line plumbing, home brew baffling solution, plus all the usual unique stuff like controls, exhaust, engine mount, cowling & the like.
I would also think it would have to be a tail dragger, too many interferences to be an 'A' model.
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