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Oshkosh newbie advice...

tkatc

tkatc

Well Known Member
This is my second post regarding air venture advice. The first one yielded excellent results so I figured I'd try again as my plan has changed. I am now FLYING my own RV into OSH!!!

The NOTAM for 2011 has now been released and I briefly read over it. I understand that slow flight operations will be essential. I practiced slow flight today for a bit. I trimmed it up for 70kts and flew a 360 in each direction and drug it home to land over 10 miles. Seemed easy out there on my own...but add busy traffic and it may be a different story. I wish airventure would make an arrival video exposing the procedure as they flew in. I want to know how many planes to expect to see (in the air) and how to determine the pecking order for arrival over Ripon. What are the realistic speeds I should expect? Is there a better time for 1st timers to arrive? How likely is it to have to divert to an alt airport? If things go "south", what is the acceptable bail out procedure?

I also see that tie downs are required. Can I wait til I arrive to purchase them? I assume better deals.
 
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Bring tie-downs with you. By the time you get back to the plane, someone may have installed a new set for you and left you a bill.

Fly the approach on Google Earth, that will help you figure out where you are supposed to be.

As for planes...

I have been in the middle of a swarm and flown it when it was so slow the controllers have asked me to respond verbally, which was very odd for OSH.

Pre load your frequencies in your radio, if able. If not, make a list of the required frequencies, in the order that you will need them. If you have a co-pilot, teach him/her how to enter them for you.

Remember, no talking. The controllers will rattle off instructions and there is always some idiot trying to talk to them, blocking all transmissions.

70 knots is not really slow flight. You need to get it down a little more.

Plan to be stuck behind a J-3 or Champ and hope for the best.

Practice spot landings, you will be asked to land on a dot, which may be way down the runway or at the threshold. Make sure you can hit it.

Also practice right and left hand slipping turns to final. The first time there with my -9 I was kept high and then told to make a right base and land short. The -9 with a FP prop doesn't slow down well, even in a turning maximum slip at GW and tail heavy. In other words, know what you and your plane can do and don?t go beyond that.
 
How slow should I practice? Slipping turns and quick descents are now on the list.

Google earth huh? I have to see if I can figure that out but it sounds like a good suggestion.
 
tkatc said:
How slow should I practice?
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When I learned slow flight in a 152 (back when they were new) we had to keep the stall horn blowing. So unless you are just above the stall, you really aren't in slow flight.

tkatc said:
Slipping turns and quick descents are now on the list.
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Make sure you are high when you do these things. Just in case. Don't forget, quick descents doesn't mean high airspeed. Thus, there is a good chance for a stall and spin. Take an instructor with you, as everyone can use some addition dual time.

tkatc said:
Google earth huh? I have to see if I can figure that out but it sounds like a good suggestion.
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Go to Google and Google "google earth". It is a free download and one very cool program. You can put in KOSH and it will take you right to it.
 
Congratulations!!!

Im sure you are excited to fly in with your own plane! Last year, my dad and I flew in for the first time. From the point of view as a passenger, this is what I learned:

Before OSH, Do more slow flight, and when you have done that... DO MORE! Practice stalls and be sure to know what they feel like. Go up with a similar load that you would have when you fly into OSH and do more slow flight. Also practice a vigorous wing rock. Controllers love it when they KNOW you heard them. Then practice spot landings, and if your local runway allows, make it really hard. I would go up with my dad and tell him to land on the left side, end of the hash mark and he would try to put it wherever I told him.

The arrival is very well laid out in the NOTAM. Fly it virtually as much as you can. Before you get into the area, check the ATIS and familiarize yourself with the frequencies you may use based on runways in use, and make sure you have your HBC or HBP sign ready. We forgot and had to draw one in flight. It was a huge hassle. As you come in, look for an RV or similar speed aircraft. We were unlucky and got stuck behind a vintage biplane going 70mph and doing S-turns. You never know. When that happens, break off and cycle yourself back in. From there, follow the NOTAM and dont be a knucklehead.

Here is what I set up for the arrival. Runways and their NOTAM page numbers along with Frequencies for quick reference when it was time to swap.
1302.jpg


Good luck and hope to see you there!
 
Homebuilt HQ

I volunteer at the Homebuilt Headquarters; this is the building where you register your plane (free); registration entitles you to an annual sticker, mug, etc.

We also sell admission wristbands, homebuilt camping credentials, etc. We'll be operational before AirVenture officially begins and stay after it's over to close up our facility.

We also rent tiedowns (and hammers) if you don't have your own or are traveling light. You'll pay a deposit plus a rental charge. Bring the item(s) back to the building and you'll get your deposit back.

The Welcome Wagon team also operates from the same building; they operate the sawed-off mini-vans and provide shuttle service to/from your plane.

Give us a shout and we'll do our best to help you out with whatever you need to make your stay a great one.

Best,
Mike
 
I don't know your plans, but if you can arrive early (before 9:30AM) you pretty much have things to yourself, at least most of the time. Traffic picks up by 10 and at noon it can be crazy. I would think it a good idea to stay somewhere no more than 200 miles out and leave at sunup for OSH. I am only a couple hours away and never saw another plane until I was on final. Have plenty of fuel; you don't want to HAVE to land! Have fun!

Bob Kelly
 
What everyonels said, plus youtube is your friend. I watched several arrivals from the cockpit. This helped me.
 
My 2 cents

When they are departing 27, watch for the departees to climb your way as you are making way towards gravel pit. If they are offering some pilots 27 or 36, i say take 36 you will be on concrete more of the time.
 
N941WR said:
Bring tie-downs with you. By the time you get back to the plane, someone may have installed a new set for you and left you a bill.

Fly the approach on Google Earth, that will help you figure out where you are supposed to be.

As for planes...

I have been in the middle of a swarm and flown it when it was so slow the controllers have asked me to respond verbally, which was very odd for OSH.

Pre load your frequencies in your radio, if able. If not, make a list of the required frequencies, in the order that you will need them. If you have a co-pilot, teach him/her how to enter them for you.

Remember, no talking. The controllers will rattle off instructions and there is always some idiot trying to talk to them, blocking all transmissions.

70 knots is not really slow flight. You need to get it down a little more.

Plan to be stuck behind a J-3 or Champ and hope for the best.

Practice spot landings, you will be asked to land on a dot, which may be way down the runway or at the threshold. Make sure you can hit it.

Also practice right and left hand slipping turns to final. The first time there with my -9 I was kept high and then told to make a right base and land short. The -9 with a FP prop doesn't slow down well, even in a turning maximum slip at GW and tail heavy. In other words, know what you and your plane can do and don?t go beyond that.
Click to expand...

I hope you're not serious about the 70kts. in the interest of safety, a person should not go below 1.5 of stall. It is recommended not to on entry into the pattern and it should not be on a 15 mile to land. I think this advise should be rethunked.
 
135 kts @ 2300 ?

is it okay for us to fly the higher faster pattern? This is the first time I am going in the -9a so I also have some trepidations of mixing it up with Cubs.
Thanks
 
1.3 Vso

So while I agree that you should be careful in the low speed range, the PTS for Private Pilot specifies 1.3 Vso to demonstrate proficiency. So I think every pilot should be comfortable handling the airplane in the pattern at 1.3 Vso.

That said, OSH is a pretty busy arrival and it's easy to get chanellized and lose SA. That's why I always take the high-speed upper track (135 kts) which is much more comfortable.

You just have to be prepared to dump all that speed when you close...

-Matt
402BD
 
Ahh...the Never-ending Debate...

Rick of Austin said:
is it okay for us to fly the higher faster pattern? This is the first time I am going in the -9a so I also have some trepidations of mixing it up with Cubs.
Thanks
Click to expand...

Ahhh...the Never-ending Debate! I was wondering how long it would take for this to come up on this thread.

Here is what the ATC portion of the Airventure Web Site has to say about it:

ALTITUDES AND AIRSPEEDS - VFR ARRIVAL PROCEDURE RIPON TO FISK

PLEASE COMPLY WITH THESE SPEED RESTRICTIONS. We know that some of your aircraft are capable of going much faster, and some wish they could cruise at 90 knots. These speed restrictions assist us (ATC) in delivering an orderly and manageable flow of traffic to the control tower, as well as to the volunteers on the ground that assist in your parking at the airport.

1,800' msl at 90 knots/104 mph or

If unable - 2,300' msl at 135 knots/155 mph.

UNLESS SPECIFICALLY APPROVED BY ATC - DO NOT EXCEED 135 knots!

Do not utilize the 2,300' pattern just because your aircraft is capable of flying at 135 knots. It makes it much easier for ATC to develop a sequence if everyone is at 1,800!

For those with a little less horsepower and a lot more drag maintain a speed as close to 90 knots/104 mph as possible!

IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF UTILIZING THE 1,800' PATTERN, PLEASE DO SO :

ALL aircraft will be required to be level at, or descending to 1,800' MSL, departing Fisk!

When only one runway is available for arrivals, which occurs frequently and often with little notice, (or if the weather does not allow for operations at 2,300' msl) please do your best to blend with the 90 knot traffic at 1800' MSL.

The "Ripon to Fisk" arrival procedure is not tailored to the airspeeds or lack of maneuverability associated with "big and fast" aircraft.
​

Note that none of these words are (as far as I can tell) in the actual offical NOTAM verbage, so it I don't think it is a FAR violation if you take the high road in an RV. You can judge for yourself whether it helps or hinders others to comply or not comply with ATC's flow plans. Personally, I make my plan to arrive at slack times, and have never had a problem.
 
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Ironflight said:
Ahhh...the Never-ending Debate! I was wondering how long it would take for this to come up on this thread...
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I've never been, but research indicates you have two easy speed requirements to meet if taking the slow route: 1. Stay under 90 knots (should be very easy in an RV) and 2. Don't overtake the guy in front of you (also easy to avoid, as you simply get out of line and try again if you are behind something REALLY slow). Is there more to it than that?
 
If your stall is 55kts than 1.3 of that if my math is right is 71.5. so if stated above to go below 70kts for a slow speed than your out of your range below 70kts. Just want to point out the dangers of going so slow. Not saying to go into the higher, which the notam does state, if unable to fly 90kts, use the higher by the way. that means pilot proficiency as well in my book, can mean many things. So be careful out there and be safe. If anything, bank out and go back to Fisk and start over, there is a way out so you don't have to fly behind the slow planes and get yourself in trouble. Myself I like the idea of flying in at the slow times. Nuf said, just don't give out advice that could kill someone please.
 
Thoughts on OSH

When I was building and looking for examples of how
RVs were built, I tried to arrive early in the week.
I don't have any statistics, but it seemed that a lot of
the RVs leave by mid-week.

About OSH slow flight:
Starting in July, I drop 10 degrees of flaps about 5 miles
out and fly approaches to my home airport at 80 mph.
It helps me get acclimated for the low OSH approach.
Tom
 
The first year I flew in was with a group of 3 airplanes and they had planned to arrive the Saturday before the start of OSH. We overnighted just a short hop from OSH and flew in early Saturday morning. The traffic was moderate, the pace on the ground was relaxed, and there were still plenty of people and airplanes to be interesting. It was good enough that I repeated the timing for my second fly-in and I'll do the same this year. Highly recommend getting in on Saturday morning. I've not experienced any issues with the slow flight being difficultly slow.
 
Actual view out the window

What everyone has said is all true and good for the most part. You asked how many other aircraft might you see while flying the approach. As a multi time offender, I can tell you that it is normal to see 3 to 5 in front, 1 or 2 along side, and if you look back, several behind you.

We have had two crazy events over the years happen to us. Once we had a Kit Fox in front of us going no more than 60! Geeze, we couldn't do enough S turns or get enough flaps out to not catch up to him. We bailed out. (We fly a Cardinal, not the speediest bird in the sky!)

Another time, we were on long final, about 1/4 mile from the end of the runway, (yes, that would be long at OSH) and cleared to land at a spot about mid way down the field. In less than 30 seconds, my copilot and I counted two on the runway, one ready to land long in front of us, one ready to land mid field in front of us, two very fast Ratan types under us to each side, and one to our left ready to bail out. Holy Cow! Thats about 7 aircraft landing on the same runway in about 2 mintes! All worked out just fine. Controllers had the fastest first and the slowest last. We were in the middle.

It really helps to have another pilot or at least a very well informed observer with you to help navagate and listen to the controllers and watch for traffic.

In spite of all that and what everyone else says, it's not really bad getting in and it is very well worth it. I think the first time I flew in my grin was ear to ear. It was high fives all the way around.

Please take others advice and learn how to fly very slow in loaded conditions and really know how to get it slow and please be ready to bail out. It's not the end of the world. Know where to go and what to do, how to get back in line. Have fun :D
 
Last year I let my son flew left seat into Oshkosh. He had 110 hrs and it was his first time doing it. He was nervous. Due to field closing on Sunday we stayed in Chicago and over fly KOSH on Monday morning before joining holds. We were one of the first to let in and were following two RVs. ATC actually asked us to speed up! Here is a Google Earth simulation of our flight:
http://3limafoxtrot.com/track/osh10.kml

Additional photos and landing video:

https://picasaweb.google.com/tc1234c/7262010Oshkosh#
 
Tie downs

To get back to one of the OPs questions about tie downs- yes you can rent tie downs at the show. However, they are of poor quality. I would not trust them on my aircraft. I guarantee that you would not want the airplane next to yours tied down with them in a strong storm. They are better than nothing, but not by much.

Do yourself a favor and buy a good set and bring them with you. Yes you can always go try to find a deal on a good set at the show, but what happens if you land right before a storm hits?
 
sprucemoose said:
To get back to one of the OPs questions about tie downs- yes you can rent tie downs at the show. However, they are of poor quality. I would not trust them on my aircraft. I guarantee that you would not want the airplane next to yours tied down with them in a strong storm. They are better than nothing, but not by much.

Do yourself a favor and buy a good set and bring them with you. Yes you can always go try to find a deal on a good set at the show, but what happens if you land right before a storm hits?
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Uh, yeah! A couple of years ago, we landed just 18min. Before a nice big storm came across the field. I had Tanya preparing the tiedowns during our taxi! You shoulda' seen how fast I pounded those stakes into the ground, and she tied them in. Jeff, you parked us that day. We've since greatly improved our tiedown speed through practice and planning.

Ted, you must have been following us then, as we were #1 into the hold, released from, and into the pattern for the runway last year on Monday. I'm sworn to secrecy as to how that happened :).
 
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Flaps and the unexpected

First, you're in for one of the greatest experiences of you life, flying into KOSH. You are starting off on the right track by preparing early. A couple of recommendations:

Practice your slow flight with 30 deg of flap, this will keep you level and give you better forward visability. 75 Kt with no flaps will put your nose uncomfortable up in the air.

Expect the unexpected. Two years ago I got behind a Bonanza and Cherekee that decided to make a 747 pattern to Rw 27. I could not turn base before the lake shore (as called for by NOTAM) without cutting them off. The upside was the controller complementing me on hitting the dot on the money.

Last year, again directed to 27, I was re-directed when even with the numbers to turn south for for a right pattern to midfield 36R. Had to turn base when even with the tower. What a fun approach to a taxiway landing.

Look forward to seeing you and everyone else.
 
Oshkosh

There is lots of talk about slow flight...............which is good but you need to know the exact power setting and configuration that yields 90 kts. Approaching Ripon at something close to 90 kts helps as it is easier to get in line if everone is going fairly close to the same speed.

It can get a little crazy if you are required to hold outside of Ripon. Everyone inventing there own holds can yield overlapping holds and planes everywhere especially as they stack closer and closer to Ripon. Holding outside of Ripon has provided most difficult arrivals in many trips to OSH. Have a plan for holds outside of Ripon and be prepared to do so if necessary.

If the guy in front of you won't maintain 90 kts or something reasonable you just have to do something else.

As far as expecting the unexpected, I was downwind for 18 a couple of years back and a Cessna came over the top of us, west to east, still toting his tow bar on the nosewheel. Either he didn't have room for it in the cabin or he was a little behind the program.
 
DaAV8R said:
There is lots of talk about slow flight...............which is good but you need to know the exact power setting and configuration that yields 90 kts. Approaching Ripon at something close to 90 kts helps as it is easier to get in line if everone is going fairly close to the same speed.

It can get a little crazy if you are required to hold outside of Ripon. Everyone inventing there own holds can yield overlapping holds and planes everywhere especially as they stack closer and closer to Ripon. Holding outside of Ripon has provided most difficult arrivals in many trips to OSH. Have a plan for holds outside of Ripon and be prepared to do so if necessary.

If the guy in front of you won't maintain 90 kts or something reasonable you just have to do something else.

As far as expecting the unexpected, I was downwind for 18 a couple of years back and a Cessna came over the top of us, west to east, still toting his tow bar on the nosewheel. Either he didn't have room for it in the cabin or he was a little behind the program.
Click to expand...

thanks I needed that last statement. Made my day, I'm still laughing.
 
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