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Advice: buyer beware or good deal?

R

ReedC

Well Known Member
Hello,
I am a fairl low time pilot and new to RVs. A partner and I own a Cessna 150 and have been looking to move into something faster and more owner maintainable. We came across what seemed like a great deal on an rv-4. We inspected the airplane and were impressed enough to put down some money. After talking to lots of people, we are having second thoughts and would love some insight from the folks on this forum. Here are the details on the airplane:

Built in 1998 by a competent builder - original work looks great
At around 100 hours airplane was ground looped and took
A prop strike at close to full throttle.

Wood Prop turned to matchsticks
Damage to right wing repaired very well. Motor mount attach points inside and out show no signs of deformation, neither does firewall.
Engine had 100 hours since overhaul 0-320 when accident occurred

Airplane is very clean inside and out and basically looks brand new.
Equipped with basic VCR avionics including Dynon d100. Basic engine instrumentation. No cht or egt.

The person who repaired it is an IA. He ran out the crank but did not tear down the engine. Says that oil test shows no metal. I'm not sure if that was a lab test or visual inspection of oil filter element. The airplane has been flown about 4 hours since the repair.

I was given a ride in it and it was hands down the funnest time I have ever had in an airplane. Part of the ride included some solid g-forces that I'm sure my Cessna 150 could not have handled.

I think the airplane was built right and repaired right, but the prop strike engine gives me the creeps.

The price is $37500

Should I walk away now and lose my deposit or is this a good deal for a newer RV-4?

Thanks,

Reed
 
Why is the seller selling it suddenly 4 hours after the repair? Has he lost confidence in the aircraft? I would consider purchasing it but not after a competent set of eyes has fully inspected it. I'm not talking about your buddy who knows about RV's and has built a tail kit. I am talking about someone who is licensed to repair airframes and powerplants and who has specific experience with RV's. You then pay them to render you an honest opinion. Only then would I feel like shelling over the bucks.
 
Reed,

I'm certainly not qualified to give guidance on this, but:

What are the compressions for each cylinder?
Can you get your own person to perform an engine inspection?
Same thing with the airframe?
What part of the wing was damaged?
Is the wing spar unaffected?
Other than that, I would make sure the fuel lines are in good shape from the damaged wing, and the motor mount is indeed free of cracks.

I think any plane with damage history is going to be quite a bit less expensive to purchase. This can provide a great deal for the buyer and will usually repeat if/when you sell someday.

Good luck!
 
My 2 cents worth

It's only a good deal, IF you have enough money in the bank to buy the plane, AND pay for an engine teardown (IRAN), AND pay to overhaul the engine if it fails the inspection. I wouldn't trust my life or my family's life without an engine teardown. Figure that cost into the purchase price of the airplane and you probably have a nice deal. If you have to overhaul the engine, it's probably not a nice deal. That's the gamble.
 
+1 for Craig

You absolutely MUST read the Lycoming Service Letter on Prop Strikes before you buy this aircraft:

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/service-bulletins/pdfs/SB533A.pdf

The subtle thing about prop strikes is that they can, or might, cause internal damage that doesn't show up right away.

IMHO, the only proper thing to do after a prop strike is to follow Lycoming's recommendations.

My $2.00 worth.

(What's with this 2 cents thing? A penny isn't worth bending over to pick up!):p
 
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I would also be concerned about a aircraft built in 98 with only 100 hours on it. That is less then 8 hours a year. I am a strong believer that airplanes need to be flown on a regular basis. Even without the prop strike a engine that sits for long periods of time is never a good thing.

George
 
We're not in a position to judge build quality, avionics, fit and finish, so you're on your own there.

The primary engine issue following a prop strike is a loose or damaged crankshaft gear, closely followed by a cracked crank filet. You cannot inspect properly without a teardown and magnaflux. Some will argue that ground contact with a wood prop won't damage the gear or the crank or the accessory components driven by the gear. I might buy that myself if the prop was mahogany, but on an RV it was far more likely to be maple. And you said it was near WOT when it hit.
 
Are experimentals legally exempt from a complete tear down of engine after prop strike? Being a wooden prop, I wouldn?t be as worried, but still should be a concern after only 4 hours. I wouldn?t think an oil analysis would tell you much after a prop strike. And only flown 100 hrs total time since ?98 is less than one hour of time per month. I can?t imagine this engine coming in any where near TBO being ran so infrequently.

The only way I would have peace of mind is to get an experienced pre-buy inspection guy like Smokey Ray or equivalent, who knows the insides and outs of 4?s with the best of ?em. If he gave it the go ahead, it would alleviate my concerns.

In this economy, $37,500 for a ?98 4 seems about right if it passes the pre-buy inspection to your satisfaction by someone qualified to do so.
 
I would offer him a very low ball offer to see his reaction. Mabey $25,000 or so and see if he thinks about it. If he so much as spends more then a few seconds thinking it over then that tells you all you need to know about his thoughts on beign able to off load the plane. He may think that he has two suckers who will buy the plane on a whim and may be worried that a more knowledgable person wont relive him of his problem (ie. the plane).

On the other hand with that small amount of flight time over the past 13 years or so he is mostly likely afraid to fly the plane (and has been the whole time) which most likely caused the prop strike anyway. That may have been the wake up call his mind needed so now he just wants his money and out of the RV.

Mabey you could trade your 150 and a few dollars to him. With that small amount of flight time sounds like he is a Cessena high wing type guy anyway.:D
 
My experience

Having bought a flying RV with an engine that had sat for a while, and subsequently having had to replace the worthless engine after finding metal shavings at the first oil change, I would either low ball to cover a new engine or run away. In my case, there was no prop strike, but the crank was still cracked and the camshaft and cylinders pitted beyond repair. I knew about the cylinders from the pre-buy inspection from an RV expert, but I expected to get more than 25 hours out of the engine that only had 150hrs SMOH.

If you can't find an RV expert close by, at a minimum I'd recommend having Gary Brown fly down from Independence, OR and check it out. Search for his posts here to get contact info. He helped me tremendously with my engine install.

Good luck!
 
I've torn down a few Lycs that had strikes and "dialed" okay. Like Dan was saying about the crank gear. That inspection is called out by the AD. Its not mandatory for experimental, but I sure wouldn't skip it. My problem is with the lack of run time since repair. What I've seen on several engines is case damage in the thrust bearing area from the crank getting jammed rearward. Galling can start there and takes a few hours to show up. I tore down a Bearhawk engine awhile ago that had the same scenario. Strike, dial, new prop and press on. Well... it got looped again within a couple hours hours and this time it was brought to me for teardown. Case nose was galling terrible from the first strike, to the point where it was just about to wad up aluminum around the slinger. Divco saved it, but it would've gone south within a few hours without the teardown.
 
I agree with the concerns about the engine. Though some may argue that the prop strike guidance from Lycoming is not legally binding for an experimental, this is an issue of physics, not law. While it's true that Lycoming's guidance is extremely conservative (even a "grass strike" is cause for teardown if the engine slows down), the fact that it chewed the ground at WOT and splintered the prop indicates this was a pretty significant event in the life of this engine. Further, "dialing the crank" is but one possible check for damage... It's really the first step (of many) to determine if the crank is serviceable. Cracked fillets, damaged geartrain and other damage may not show up for many flight hours - could be years.

The fact of the matter is that without a teardown, nobody has enough information to decide if the engine was damaged or not. It is a huge gamble, and the price needs to reflect that (and it doesn't sound like it does). I'd be pushing for a price reduction that covers the engine teardown , or walk away.
 
Leave it!

Turn and run - give up your cash for the education and save your mind. To me the engine is just a bolt on accessory that means little over time and if the plane and price were good I would buy it and deal with MY airplane. Clearly, you are not in that frame of mind and this will eat you up and spit out your anxiety. If the original builder who has deep dedication, ground looped it after 96 hours, had it repaired on the cheap and wants to sell it after 4 more hours, step back and think about what lies ahead for you jumping into it from your Cessna 150.

Bob Axsom
 
RPM's?

At full power and a splintered prop, what kind of RPM's do you think the engine could have hit? Anybody's guess.

Steve Barnes "The Builders Coach"
 
Steve Barnes said:
At full power and a splintered prop, what kind of RPM's do you think the engine could have hit? Anybody's guess.
Click to expand...

This.

A strike on a wood prop at idle rpms is one thing, but a strike on any kind of prop at high rpms is a huge amount of energy that had to be dissipated somewhere and the shredding of the wood prop no way could have absorbed it all.
 
RV-4

Dude;

Basic rule to prop strike! Send the crankshaft to be
certified/Yellow Tag at an FAA certified repair
facility for inspection/rejection! You don't fly on a
questable crankstaft.

Hum-de-de-hum! Four(4) hours...... Smile

Double Dang, Engine should be starting to come apart soon....
 
Tear down

Is warranted for all the reasons posted before but I don't see the need to run away just yet. If your pre buy is done by an impartial "pro" and the aircraft is otherwise good then negotiate a deal contingent on tear down analysis and repair. Negotiate an out for yourself, if engine/parts don't spec then you a: walk with full refund of down payment or b: agree on repairs and repairer and adjust purchase price accordingly. If the plane specs good,by a reputable shop,then offer to pay a portion of reassembly costs (less than your potential loss if you walk away now). All of this is predicated that you gave a significant down payment, if were only talking a couple hundred buck then all this may not be worth the time.
 
Deposit?

I would never keep someone's deposit just because I wouldn't feel right about it. With no exceptions, everyone I have dealt with on VAF has acted with honor, so to me a verbal "handshake" is plenty.

Not necessarily legally binding anyway, but lawyers may weigh in here.

In your case, I would ask for the deposit back, as that RV4 isn't the only one out there and most don't have issues like an unresolved prop strike
 
I'm going to walk

Thanks everyone for being generous with your experiences and knowledge. Although mostly depressing, its been educational.

The seller is not willing to budge on the price at all. Since I don't have the $ to take on the tear down and possible overhaul on the engine, I am going turn it down.

What a shame because from every other angle, it is a sweet airplane. I am in a bad spot now, after going up in the RV, i'm not sure the 150 is going to do it for me anymore....


Before the thread is closed I want to fill in some missing and misreported details:

- the airplane was finished in 2008 not 1998 (my bad)
- the original owner did not ground loop the airplane, another pilot who borrowed the airplane did
- the builder sold the airplane to an IA mechanic who fixed it u just to sell it. (no medical)

we'll lose the deposit, but at least I got an rv-4 ride out of it.
Losing the $ is fair, as he held up his side by taking the airplane off the market for a week.

On a selfish note: If one of you guys looking for a project wants to look into this deal, send me a private message. If you end up buying it, maybe he'll give me my deposit back :)

Thanks,
Reed
 
ReedC said:
What a shame because from every other angle, it is a sweet airplane. I am in a bad spot now, after going up in the RV, i'm not sure the 150 is going to do it for me anymore....
Click to expand...
Wecome to the club, Now you know about the RV grin and the $20,000 intro ride. (kit price only):D
 
Don't walk away from your deposit.

Before you walk away from your deposit, have you asked the seller for it back? In the airplane market, a deposit is more of a good faith deposit, not a non-refundable donation to the seller. Placing a deposit shows the seller that you're serious about the plane, and need to do some homework first. It almost always secures your option for a pre-buy inspection, whether physical or paperwork, etc. You only held up his plane for a week, which is nothing in aircraft buying terms. If he had others interested in the plane while you were considering it, he would have kept their info in case you didn't complete the transaction.

I'd call the seller and tell him you did your homework, but you don't think this is the plane for you. Chances are, he'll give your deposit back to you. Most pilots are quite reasonable about this sort of thing. I'm a professional aircraft broker and have dealt with this many times. Whether "entitled" or not, you'll probably see your deposit returned to you.
 
Just posting this out of curiousity...isn't the asking price pretty low already? Is it possible the seller priced it that way because of the potential cost in engine repair? Think of it this way - if this airplane did NOT have a prop strike, what would he be asking for this airplane? Probably a lot more than $37k.

Not sure why everyone is telling the buyer to "run for the hills". Don't equally equipped -4's usually go for around $45k? I think the buyer should still consider it. Yes, tear down the engine and inspect...but if you're mechanically inclined, then learn how to do it yourself and save some money.
 
Using the TAP on line valuation as of this morning, a 2007 RV-4 (no data for 2008) has an estimate of $58,100 - low estimate of $45,200 and a high estimate of $70,625 (assumes O-320 engine with 180 hours).

As so many have commented - the issue here is the impact of damage history on value and the current condition of the engine. The drive gear on the crankshaft can be inspected without complete engine disassembly (accessory cover has to be removed) and it would likely require removing the engine from the airframe. Not horrible, and probably worth doing for peace of mind.

Just another data point - FWIW

Dan
 
Using the TAP on line valuation as of this morning, a 2007 RV-4 (no data for 2008) has an estimate of $58,100 - low estimate of $45,200 and a high estimate of $70,625 (assumes O-320 engine with 180 hours).
Click to expand...

With respect to the poster, I don't think TAP knows what they're talking about. I watch asking prices on RV's every day on Barnstormers, TAP, Controller and their "estimate" is about $10K high in my opinion... Also, asking prices are not always selling prices by a factor of 5% or better.

Of course, YMMV
 
Jerry Cochran said:
With respect to the poster, I don't think TAP knows what they're talking about. I watch asking prices on RV's every day on Barnstormers, TAP, Controller and their "estimate" is about $10K high in my opinion... Also, asking prices are not always selling prices by a factor of 5% or better.

Of course, YMMV
Click to expand...

Jerry nailed it - asking prices are just that. Often times, sellers fall in to the "wishful thinking" category.

To the original poster, keep your head up and keep looking for an RV-4. Don't be afraid to call and make offers based on what YOU think a given plane is worth. You may offend a few sellers (their egos will get over it), but eventually you'll find a sweet deal. I see no reason to pay more than $35k for a fixed pitch O-320 RV-4. Three years ago, I paid about the same for a very nice O-360, constant speed, IFR panel, RV-4 with good times on airframe and engine. It took me four months and countless e-mails/phone calls to find it. Good luck!
 
I agree with the pricing. I was looking heavily a year ago. I overpaid for a RV6 but because of the history and builder I was very comfortable with the aircraft. I have started looking at Rockets and RV8's again in the last few weeks. One thing I have noticed is that there seems to be a significant price drop since just a year ago. Its a buyers market and cash is king.

George
 
ReedC said:
...The seller is not willing to budge on the price at all...
Click to expand...

I looked at a Hiperbipe for sale several years ago, and among several other problems, the wings were suffering from a fairly well known (for the type) glue joint delamination. The wings were literally coming apart at the seams. When shown this condition (after admitting that he had NEVER pulled the inspection covers off in 10 years!) he was completely uninterested. He did not think that the need for a complete rebuild of 4 wings made any impact to the his sale price (which was right in line with genuinely nice Hiperbipes). The point is, the market determines price, not the seller. Many sellers don't, can't or won't understand this, but that's not your problem - make sure you keep it that way.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not up on current selling prices for RV-4's, but considering the soft market overall, that price does NOT sound like he's giving a discount for a questionable engine.
 
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Buyer's market

Further to Craig's point about asking for your deposit back, when I was shopping for my RV7, only in one case out of many was the airplane sold before I could make a decision, and it was out of my price range anyway. I had dialogue back and forth with the owner of the one I eventually bought without a deposit for several weeks, including having him fly an hour round trip to the pre-buy. He essentially gave me first right of refusal if someone else was seriously interested.

Its definitely a buyer's market.
 
what to do...

Congratulations on deciding to fly an RV!!!! That grin is something you will never forget. Lets go over a few basics. At the end of the day.... it's an airplane that was bent to include a prop strike? In this market, you can get a great airplane that is not damaged and does not have a prop strike for fairly cheap. Why spend that kind of money on a bent bird? If you have fallen in love with it.... have the engine torn down by a REAL ENGINE SHOP and do the right inspection. NONE OF THIS DIAL STUFF!!!!! If it's a prop strike, that a TON of force and vibration that the aircraft went through not to mention perhaps a huge overspeed!!!!. Call me if you have any questions. Don't buy a polished turd. YOU HAVE TO ASSUME THE WORST SCENERIO!!!! What if you have a crank break? YOUR ENGINE COULD STOP IMMEDIATELY!!! YOU COULD DIE!!! You could also hurt or kill other people on the ground! Let me step off my soapbox.... 1. it has damage, 2. The engine was not torn down so you really don't know what you have, 3. There was damage to the rest of the aircraft. 4. What about the engine mount, landing gear and firewall? Was it taken off and put through a NDI?!! 5. The prop strike was at near full throttle... what kind of hidden damage is there from all that violent shaking? In my opinion without the proper inspections the airplane is worth ZERO.... Don't put yourself in a coffin. I can't tell you how many airplanes people have tried to sneak past me for an annual with serious problems. Some of those people don't like me anymore... They are still alive to complain... I grounded a Mooney in Atlanta because the flight controls were partially sawed through... and six pages of other squawks... The flight instructor was not a mechanic and had no idea what he was flying. If he keeps your deposit... take it as a sign never to do business with that person again and be thankful you have your life.... PERIOD. If you think the airplane will hurt somebody, tell the FAA! As an aircraft mechanic it's not my job to be your friend and sugar coat everything... It's my job to do the right thing. As your parents said, doing the right thing may not make you popular but it's doing the right thing that will keep your butt out of a sling and alive!
Best
Brian
 
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I agree with Brian, more or less. It definitely needs to be torn down, and I'd want a experienced sheet metal guy to look at the wings, get the mount magnafluxed, etc. IF this plane was $27k, and I was comfortable with disassembling (myself) the engine and getting the crank, rods, gears, etc checked, I'd roll the dice.

If you can get it cheap enough, one option is to buy the plane and a mid-time engine. Do the swap and then tear the current engine down. If it was overhauled recently, AND everything turns out good, you shouldn't need much more than gaskets, NDI and some other odds and ends to have a good spare engine than you can sell, put back on the plane or...whatever. Worst case, MOST of the engine will be good, and worth a good bit as parts or a core.

brianwallis said:
Congratulations on deciding to fly an RV!!!! That grin is something you will never forget. Lets go over a few basics. At the end of the day.... it's an airplane that was bent to include a prop strike? In this market, you can get a great airplane that is not damaged and does not have a prop strike for fairly cheap. Why spend that kind of money on a bent bird? If you have fallen in love with it.... have the engine torn down by a REAL ENGINE SHOP and do the right inspection. NONE OF THIS DIAL STUFF!!!!! If it's a prop strike, that a TON of force and vibration that the aircraft went through not to mention perhaps a huge overspeed!!!!. Call me if you have any questions. Don't buy a polished turd. YOU HAVE TO ASSUME THE WORST SCENERIO!!!! What if you have a crank break? YOUR ENGINE COULD STOP IMMEDIATELY!!! YOU COULD DIE!!! You could also hurt or kill other people on the ground! Let me step off my soapbox.... 1. it has damage, 2. The engine was not torn down so you really don't know what you have, 3. There was damage to the rest of the aircraft. 4. What about the engine mount, landing gear and firewall? Was it taken off and put through a NDI?!! 5. The prop strike was at near full throttle... what kind of hidden damage is there from all that violent shaking? In my opinion without the proper inspections the airplane is worth ZERO.... Don't put yourself in a coffin. I can't tell you how many airplanes people have tried to sneak past me for an annual with serious problems. Some of those people don't like me anymore... They are still alive to complain... I grounded a Mooney in Atlanta because the flight controls were partially sawed through... and six pages of other squawks... The flight instructor was not a mechanic and had no idea what he was flying. If he keeps your deposit... take it as a sign never to do business with that person again and be thankful you have your life.... PERIOD. If you think the airplane will hurt somebody, tell the FAA! As an aircraft mechanic it's not my job to be your friend and sugar coat everything... It's my job to do the right thing. As your parents said, doing the right thing may not make you popular but it's doing the right thing that will keep your butt out of a sling and alive!
Best
Brian
Click to expand...
 
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