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After reading the AOPA thread (or as much of it as I could stomach) I gained a fresh appreciation for the civility of VAF. In fact I can think of few other large forums that meet the same standard; clearly Doug and the moderators are doing something unusual here.

Dr. Chien may indeed be erudite and pleasant in person, but if so he's clearly succumbed to "internet fever". Perhaps the best approach would be to direct the AOPA group to some of the recent safety threads on VAF, to set a better example?
 
I agree with allbee that this has gone long enough. Just one thought and I am done with the whole discussion.

My last post on the AOPA forum was to be my last post on the AOPA forum. If you know what I mean. Except once I pressed the "Submit Reply" button I instantly received a pop up window: "Thank you for submitting your reply to this thread. Your reply is being reviewed by a moderator. . ."

That was well over an hour ago and I still do not see my post on the thread. I guess I was voicing my displeasure at the behavior on that forum strongly enough to garner the ire of the moderator. Doug, and all other moderators. I value your positions and respect them immensely. However, I hope you never stoop to the level of censoring a post simply because the poster voiced opposition to your statements on an open forum thread. [ed. No worries Steve! We have a winning formula here, I think. All I did was establish the posting rules....everyone else rose to the level of civility that I was hoping for! dr] It is absolutely unbelievable this occurred. I have taken from these past two days an entirely different perspective of AOPA in general. My experience has definitely not been positive in the least.
 
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VAF forums are "educational"

I learned two things from this thread...

1) a new use for the potato

and

2) the meaning of the word "animus"

I am a blessed man. :)
 
The difference is one little vowel ...

rv7boy said:
I learned two things from this thread...

1) a new use for the potato

and

2) the meaning of the word "animus"

I am a blessed man. :)
Click to expand...

Just remember which fellow RVer taught you which.

Dan = potato

Don = animus

:D :D :D
 
(My twenty year run with AOPA ended this year...)

rocketbob said:
Mine did too. The December Avweb article on salary/staffing levels at AOPA were enough for me.
Click to expand...

I just read that article for the first time. Now I understand the tax and spend philosophy of Mr. Fuller better. 80 mil in reserves, top dollar execs getting raises during the downturn and dues get raised while members get solicited to the point of harassment. Past free services now cost. Just yesterday I got a 25 year pin from AOPA thanking me for my continued membership. I also received another letter soliciting money for AOPA PAC as well as another separate letter from them soliciting for health screening. Then at 6:30 pm while out with my family I get a call from AOPA on my cell phone trying to sell me on the legal plan. I'm having a hard time imagining myself as a member next year.
 
Focus on the big picture!

I have not read every one of the other posts in the other threads, but it is abundantly clear that we are likely to do lots of damage to GA in general just from the infighting. Face it, as pilots we are ALL rich and arrogant, using taxpayer money to pay for all those playgrounds we call airports. That's how John Q. Public sees us anyway. Thanks to this raging internet battle, Google is much more likely to lead anyone right to these threads and expose ALL of our collective dirty laundry. At this point, any potential value (if there ever was any) of elevating this one isolated incident (again, if it actually hapened) in the name of "safety" is long gone.

At the end of the day, because of our division, we're a small group of pilots made even smaller and less able to influence a positive outcome. No matter what we do, we're NEVER going to win over all the spam can drivers out there, but we can sure as heck pretend to stick together in the public eye. We're all pilots and we need each other, no matter what type of aircraft we fly.

I think it's past time we shut up and realize the world is watching!
 
Craig Fuller

I appreciate the alert!

We're trying to sort this one out.

Craig


This is the response I got--directly from Craig.
 
Toobuilder said:
I have not read every one of the other posts in the other threads, but it is abundantly clear that we are likely to do lots of damage to GA in general just from the infighting. Face it, as pilots we are ALL rich and arrogant, using taxpayer money to pay for all those playgrounds we call airports. That's how John Q. Public sees us anyway. Thanks to this raging internet battle, Google is much more likely to lead anyone right to these threads and expose ALL of our collective dirty laundry. At this point, any potential value (if there ever was any) of elevating this one isolated incident (again, if it actually hapened) in the name of "safety" is long gone.

At the end of the day, because of our division, we're a small group of pilots made even smaller and less able to influence a positive outcome. No matter what we do, we're NEVER going to win over all the spam can drivers out there, but we can sure as heck pretend to stick together in the public eye. We're all pilots and we need each other, no matter what type of aircraft we fly.

I think it's past time we shut up and realize the world is watching!
Click to expand...

Right on Michael, even when you and I were scolded by D.R. a few years ago for some stupid banter we had it never approached anything like this. Time to stop and not lower ourselves to the level displayed at the AOPA board. I too had to look up my user name and password to read something I could have done without. Bravo to those who tossed themselves into that volcano and made an attempt to respond in a civil manner.
 
A welcome diversion...

It's clear and forever here in North Alabama this afternoon, so I am going out to the aerodrome in a few minutes and give a friend his first airplane ride. He is really excited about it. After reading this thread off and on for the last two days, my little brain needs a diversion. He is my insurance agent so I hope I don't do something "stoopid!"

Check back with you guys tomorrow...:cool:
 
Ancient words of advice

"Fools vent their anger, but the wise quietly hold it back."

Easy to say, hard to live by.

And here is one that I cooked up. Will need a couple of thousand years to see if it holds up as well as the one above.

"Truth and Time are Teammates"
 
RVbySDI said:
That was well over an hour ago and I still do not see my post on the thread. I guess I was voicing my displeasure at the behavior on that forum strongly enough to garner the ire of the moderator. Doug, and all other moderators. I value your positions and respect them immensely. However, I hope you never stoop to the level of censoring a post simply because the poster voiced opposition to your statements on an open forum thread.
Click to expand...
Not for nothing kind sir, but you might want to do a little homework and learn what is what before you go making assumptions about how and why certain things happen the way they do on certain other forums. IOW, you might want to practice what you preach a bit.

The one and only reason you would see a message saying your post is being reviewed by moderator is because you submitted the post without being logged in to the forum. Certain sections of the AOPA forum allow anonymous posting. You do that by logging out before you post. But when you do, your post goes into a moderator que and has to be approved before it will appear. I believe this was done in order to prevent people from abusing the anon posting feature to do things like insult other members anonymously. Pretty logical system when you think about it really.

So whether you intended to or not, you posted anonymously. And as you may or may not know, all of the moderators on the AOPA forum are volunteers. People who volunteer for stuff still have to pay the rent so they tend to work for a living. Work tends to happen during daylight hours for most folks. So I think its safe to say that your assumption that AOPA or one of its moderators would have the nerve to censor your post simply because you said something they didn't like is a little off the mark to say the least. I love a good witch burning as much as the next guy. But if you're going to burn the witch, at least do a little research and get your facts straight first.

BTW, a little bridie just told me your post is now visible. Happy now?
 
The main protagonist in the POA forum never mentioned how many planes were in the pattern. Was it two including him and the RV?

How did an RV do an overhead approach to runway 28 offset 1.5 miles to the south ... thus placing him head to head with the 152?

PS, I saw some certified plane flying through the pattern at about pattern altitude in the last few days. Went merrily on his way to the south.
 
RVbySDI said:
I am afraid you are missing out on the fact that the very nature of the AOPA thread in question originated because of the aforementioned accident.
Click to expand...
Drat... I was hoping that wasn't the case but I didn't check. I'm not an AOPA member so I didn't go to their forum. The POA forum referenced a different event initially.
 
DanH said:
Certain operations draw attention.

It is legal and safe to walk around with a potato in the seat of my pants. It is even useful; I have a spare potato in case I need one. However, the reviews may not be positive.
Click to expand...

I'm just back from a rather busy time at work (my "other" project now on its way to the outer planets :) ), and getting back into the build and this is my first time back on the forum, and THIS post has me in stitches! It's good to be back!!!

I do like the idea of a "spare potato" in one's pants LOL!

I swear to God, I'm sitting here and I can't stop laughing!
 
A Potato in my Pants

I have been to lots of GA airports in my lifetime. For every unsafe act I have witnessed thousands of safe and proper approaches, patterns, landings and procedures.

For every mistake, unsafe act or stupid stunt by an RV (homebuilt I have witnessed hundreds performed by pilots of spam cans.

With the exception of buzzing (low level acro) most of what I have witnessed has been a mistake, lapse in judgement, or bad day for the pilot rather than an intentional recurring theme for that individual. Who among us has never made a mistake in the pattern?
Sitting around airport lounges I have witnessed many conversations relative to safety and procedure. More often than not these are led or precipitated by a homebuilder.
I really think if you are adamant about a safety problem then you should address it directly with the perpetrator or take it to the FAA, not post diatribes on a bulletin board.

I can assure you that for every negative RV post on the POA or AOPA forums there are thousands who breeze past them and in general disagree.
These RV bashers need to man up, look inward and reflect on the mistakes and dumb stunts they have made in their flying careers and hash them out in public before they continue to harangue the RV community.
We are more likely to see Dan and several copycats wearing a potato than we are a public backlash against RVs because of these mini internet trolls.
 
We Need toTake a Hard Look at Ourselves

For every mistake, unsafe act or stupid stunt by an RV (homebuilt I have witnessed hundreds performed by pilots of spam cans.

Milt:
unfortunately, the stats point squarely at experimentals in general and RVs in particular. Looking at the accident and fatality stats over recent years (this has already been hashed in the forums), if you take out low level acro/buzzing and formation flying, our numbers aren't much different than the general population. One has only to read back thru this thread or lookup topics such as "overhead break" to see we have a strong attitude of superiority and entitlement. Roll that into an unwillingness to confront the issue (and primary perpetrators) head on, and this is likely an issue that only the insurance carriers and FAA can fix. Anyone who believes otherwise has only to look at some of the responses to Doug Reeve's or Van's recent missives on safety.
Some people get. Unfortunately, a good number never will
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
Good point N395V. Everyone has a lapse in judgment. Sometimes that lapse shows up as a well intentioned message with passion that could be seen as hate. I have gone back and read a small sampling of Dr. C's other posts and he seems to be a reasonable person with good advice. I hope others will do the same. He does not like RV's because he perceives the pilots to be lacking in judgment too often. This is his perception and we won't change it by name calling. He did make some blanket, prejudicial statements about all RV pilots, but this was his (imoh) moment of lapse. Respect gets respect. I can only hope he, and others, come to VAF and see the posts on how we are trying to improve safety and relations with other groups. I hope he, and others, forgive our members for our lapses in judgment.

This is not a zero sum game. There are no winners when we can't get along.

How about a group hug and we put this to rest?:)
 
Milt- I'm right there in line with you

However, read back thru this thread while considering the following....

Denial is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. [1] The subject may use:
simple denial - deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether
minimisation - admit the fact but deny its seriousness (a combination of denial and rationalization)
projection - admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility.

Terry
 
Mike D said:
Good point N395V. Everyone has a lapse in judgment. Sometimes that lapse shows up as a well intentioned message with passion that could be seen as hate. I have gone back and read a small sampling of Dr. C's other posts and he seems to be a reasonable person with good advice. I hope others will do the same. He does not like RV's because he perceives the pilots to be lacking in judgment too often. This is his perception and we won't change it by name calling. He did make some blanket, prejudicial statements about all RV pilots, but this was his (imoh) moment of lapse. Respect gets respect. I can only hope he, and others, come to VAF and see the posts on how we are trying to improve safety and relations with other groups. I hope he, and others, forgive our members for our lapses in judgment.

This is not a zero sum game. There are no winners when we can't get along.

How about a group hug and we put this to rest?:)
Click to expand...

Of course that laspe has lasted for days. But then I wouldn't know for the last 24 hrs. I've stayed away.............because I get too p***** off, if you know what I mean. And it's sad, because the Dr. really does have good medical advice. No group hug from me....

L.Adamson ---- RV6A
 
Overhead Break = Superiority and Entitlement..huh?

terrykohler said:
One has only to read back thru this thread or lookup topics such as "overhead break" to see we have a strong attitude of superiority and entitlement.
Click to expand...

Terry - can you explain your statement please...

Thanks!
 
joe gremlin said:
Not for nothing kind sir, but you might want to do a little homework and learn what is what before you go making assumptions about how and why certain things happen the way they do on certain other forums. IOW, you might want to practice what you preach a bit.

The one and only reason you would see a message saying your post is being reviewed by moderator is because you submitted the post without being logged in to the forum. Certain sections of the AOPA forum allow anonymous posting. You do that by logging out before you post. But when you do, your post goes into a moderator que and has to be approved before it will appear. I believe this was done in order to prevent people from abusing the anon posting feature to do things like insult other members anonymously. Pretty logical system when you think about it really.

So whether you intended to or not, you posted anonymously. And as you may or may not know, all of the moderators on the AOPA forum are volunteers. People who volunteer for stuff still have to pay the rent so they tend to work for a living. Work tends to happen during daylight hours for most folks. So I think its safe to say that your assumption that AOPA or one of its moderators would have the nerve to censor your post simply because you said something they didn't like is a little off the mark to say the least. I love a good witch burning as much as the next guy. But if you're going to burn the witch, at least do a little research and get your facts straight first.

BTW, a little bridie just told me your post is now visible. Happy now?
Click to expand...
Ok, your critique is a fair one. However, I was indeed logged in to AOPA and to that specific thread when I submitted that post. I actually replied to a PM message also afterwards without having to log in again so there was no indication on my end that I was not logged into AOPA or to that specific thread. Because of this I am suspect that was the reason, but if that is the cause I stand corrected and offer my apologies.

dwilson said:
"Fools vent their anger, but the wise quietly hold it back."

Easy to say, hard to live by.

And here is one that I cooked up. Will need a couple of thousand years to see if it holds up as well as the one above.

"Truth and Time are Teammates"
Click to expand...
Given Mr. Gremlin's post, I thank Mr. Wilson for the above post. I have allowed myself to become consumed by an anger that is non-constructive in this incident. I shall endeavor to strive more toward wisdom that I obviously do not yet possess.
 
RV8R999 said:
Terry - can you explain your statement please...

Thanks!
Click to expand...

You can start with post #8. It is not difficult to objectively browse through this forum in different threads and pick up on a sense of superiority. A little less of that in the flying community could go a long way. If you need to look further, read Van's recent facebook article on how RV pilots might be earning a reputation that they may not be proud of.
 
read it..blah, blah, blah..

thousands upon thousands of pilots in this country alone so how do we decide we have a reputation issue? because a few posters on AOPA or POA or even our own VAF? Or accident statistics in which the very basis is determined from voluntary surveys and estimated flight times? Or is it enough Van himself says so?


All I ever hear when talking to real people, face-to-face, is how they love RV's and wish they could have one themselves. When I fly into an airport for a quick lunch, the number of people standing around looking at the RV's are about 10 to 0 for all the other type/model/series.. EVERYTIME, Every single time. Walk in the door to an airport cafe and almost always someone comes over to the table as says, "love your plane - nice looking RV". Sometimes it is even annoying when in a hurry to depart for Wx and a group of pilots walk over and want to talk about the plane and RVs in general. These folks are other pilots flying all the other brands and they are excited by the RVs. This never happened in my BD4 (ok, maybe once or twice).

My first hand experience, which is mine alone, tells me there exists a message mismatch between the "sky is falling" hype and the real world.
At my former home base (KCRG) a group of 4 ATP CFI's brought their new PP students to my hangar (6 students) to look at my plane after taxiing in from a flight (after an OB even). The CFI's said, "This is the kind of plane you want to learn to fly someday" they then started talking to their students about all they knew, and heard about RV's (cost, speed, aerobatics, formation, looks). Most of what they said was spot-on, meaning they studied and were sincerely interested themselves.

I'm not buying into the hysteria...I don't see it first hand at all. Just my limited perspective and .01
 
Ken, the problem is not the airplane itself! I'm not sure you're realizing that. It's the "Stupid pilot tricks" done by stupid pilots in these airplanes that are causing headaches. Believe me, I really like the plane, I'm investing my hard earned money into building one, so I understand what you are saying about how they are nice planes. But that isn't the issue here.

Heck, if there were no Stupid Pilot Tricks going on, then DR certainly wouldn't have had to write his safety missive that everyone appreciated, correct?
 
Dwight Eisenhower once said of Joseph McCarthy, "I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with that skunk." He knew that getting into the dirt with McCarthy would only help McCarthy get more attention. He knew that in the long run, McCarthy's brand of demagoguery would burn itself out.

As more and more RV's populate the aviation world, it will become clear that the vast majority are good, sometimes even great, responsible pilots who care deeply about flying and general aviation. We should do every thing we can to show that and then let the chips fall where they may.
 
There are a lot

of RV's out there flying. I heard somewhere (probably here) that there are more RV's flying of all different models than there are of Cessna Citations. If you compare the number of RV's out there compared to all other homebuilt/experimental machines it is likely that ther are way more RV's than most other types. The only others that I can think of that have similar popularity are the Lancair, Glaisair, and planes like that. With over 4,000 aircraft flying, we have a pretty large market share of the homebuilt airplanes. The volume of these aircraft out there will put us under the microscope, just because people see them more often and we are in the forefront of their memories.

By raise of hands how many of us wanted to buy/build our RV's because we were tired of the performance of our Cessna/Piper/Beechcraft rides? We were brave enough to take the plunge and invest in our airplane dream.

I think that you can equate the same attitude that drivers of a Chevy Malibu have toward BMW or Merceded Benz Drivers. The Cessna and Pipers out there are like the Chevy's of the world, and we drive the higher performance Sedans with our RV's. Both do the same job, one just does it better than the other, and is more fun to do it in.

Do I ever think that this argument will be solved - Not really, but I do think that for the good of the aviation community, it is best that we all just get along even if you have to fake it. Will pilots make mistakes, absolutely! We are human after all. Realize that you are just as human as the offending person and hopefully you will not take it so personally.

As for the overhead breaks and other items that are complained about on other boards. We might want to make sure that we are properly trained, and ensure that other pattern traffic is OK with our manuever and then proceed. If anyone has problems with it - probably best not to disrupt the pattern and traffic operations. Use the golden rule as often as you can, and it will all work out better.

Again this is just my 2 cents, spend it as you like.
 
RV8R999 said:
All I ever hear when talking to real people, face-to-face, is how they love RV's and wish they could have one themselves. When I fly into an airport for a quick lunch, the number of people standing around looking at the RV's are about 10 to 0 for all the other type/model/series.. EVERYTIME, Every single time. Walk in the door to an airport cafe and almost always someone comes over to the table as says, "love your plane - nice looking RV". Sometimes it is even annoying when in a hurry to depart for Wx and a group of pilots walk over and want to talk about the plane and RVs in general. These folks are other pilots flying all the other brands and they are excited by the RVs. This never happened in my BD4 (ok, maybe once or twice).

My first hand experience, which is mine alone, tells me there exists a message mismatch between the "sky is falling" hype and the real world.
At my former home base (KCRG) a group of 4 ATP CFI's brought their new PP students to my hangar (6 students) to look at my plane after taxiing in from a flight (after an OB even). The CFI's said, "This is the kind of plane you want to learn to fly someday" they then started talking to their students about all they knew, and heard about RV's (cost, speed, aerobatics, formation, looks). Most of what they said was spot-on, meaning they studied and were sincerely interested themselves.

I'm not buying into the hysteria...I don't see it first hand at all. Just my limited perspective and .01
Click to expand...

Ken makes an excellent observation that to my mind deserves further consideration. The question is how broad is the negative perception about RV’s (and their pilots) – is it becoming wide spread or are we dealing with a small but visible/vocal group of antagonists. Now, if the latter were an unusual occurrence in our culture I wouldn’t put much stock in the likelihood. But in truth, we see this type of thing happen all the time. A handful of people complain about a Christmas display, or flying the flag, or whatever, and the complaints get inflated by media, the internet, etc. The next thing you know, decision makers react to address the “groundswell” of complaints when in reality the overwhelming majority of people have no problem with the issue at hand. We live in an age where just a few people can make a lot of noise, and the noise level often gets mistaken as a much larger representation of how people feel than it really is. So is that what is happening here? Seems to me that the answer to this question is germane in determining how to react and/or what to do about it…

[ed. The got dang Germans got nothing to do with it!!!! dr - sorry, couldn't resist the Smokey and the Bandit quote.]​
 
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WhiskeyMike said:
... So is that what is happening here? Seems to me that the answer to this question is germane in determining how to react and/or what to do about it…
Click to expand...

Good point. And, unfortunately, there's really no way to know.

As I tried to point out to the antagonists on the other forum, there is no governing authority (save the FAA) over RV pilots, any more than there is over pilots of Cessnas, Pipers and Beechcrafts. We can talk all we want here on VAF about flying our RVs safely, but those who are not tied in here won't get the message.

Trying to find out if the message we've received about us being the black sheep of the GA community is an accurate reflection of the overall GA population would only be possible if the majority of GA pilots were similarly tied into some governing organization like AOPA, and they aren't.

It's my guess that the majority of GA pilots on the FAA registry fly very little, fly rental or club planes or own an older plane that sees air under its wings fewer than 25 hours a year. And I'd bet that the majority of those pilots don't hang out on aviation internet sites or devour aviation magazines. Consequently, they are blissfully unaware of the accident statistics of homebuilt aircraft and wouldn't know an RV if they tripped over it.

It's a tough call. I fully understand those in our ranks -- and indeed the whole GA population -- who resent ANY further restrictions on our flying privileges. But, being one who really doesn't trust the government to do what's best for GA, I fully expect them to seize whatever power they can over us and anything we do that feeds that fire will contribute to our undoing. All that's being asked is that we fly safely and courteously. I would expect nothing less from my fellow RVers.

As we all know, flying is inherently more dangerous than lying in bed. And, sadly, we now live in a society that demands that life be safe and free from any risk. When those who value safety over freedom hold the reins, we can either compromise in the hope that we will retain some of our freedom to fly or fight and risk losing it all. I happen to think that we have bigger battles ahead.
 
**** from yesterday

From the AOPA red forum, and a poster with 19000+ postings

"You realize that just calling it "Van's Air Force" automatically makes it sound like all of you are wannabe kooks though. All the "RV-Mustang" paint jobs don't help a bunch to deter from the Walter Mitty image. "

My note: Walter Mitty is a man who lives in a fantasy world

My second note. Someone in the AOPA should reign these guys in. A wedge driven between pilots is never good promotion for an association that prides itself on catoring to pilots across the globe.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
L.Adamson said:
... Someone in the AOPA should reign these guys in. A wedge driven between pilots is never good promotion for an association that prides itself on catoring to pilots across the globe.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
Click to expand...

After reading the entire thread on the AOPA forum, I did drop a note to Craig Fuller expressing my dismay at the unbridled rancor that had developed on that thread, and encouraging him to moderate the boards a bit.

I have yet to receive an acknowledgement from anyone at AOPA.
 
N8RV said:
After reading the entire thread on the AOPA forum, I did drop a note to Craig Fuller expressing my dismay at the unbridled rancor that had developed on that thread, and encouraging him to moderate the boards a bit.

I have yet to receive an acknowledgement from anyone at AOPA.
Click to expand...

I've just been looking for the best E-mail address to do the same. It's really gotten out of hand,......... from a few with too much time on their hands.........and somehow seem to get a real kick out of this. It certainly won't help a memborship quota for AOPA.

And I even use to like what this particular poster would usually write.
Dr. Bruce Chein wrote a lot of good material too. What happened?

I've been a member of the AOPA since 1993, but just joined that forum early this year. I'm just not sure.........on the AOPA membership at this point. I hope you get a reply.

L.Adamson
 
I think at this point the best thing to do would be to STOP reading THIS thread, the PoA thread AND the AOPA thread. In a few days you will be able to think clearer and possibly let it go. Just do YOUR part and be the best pilot you can be and let the chips fall where they will.
 
tkatc said:
I think at this point the best thing to do would be to STOP reading THIS thread, the PoA thread AND the AOPA thread. In a few days you will be able to think clearer and possibly let it go. Just do YOUR part and be the best pilot you can be and let the chips fall where they will.
Click to expand...

+1. Couldn't have said it better myself. If the RV'ers ignore the guys raising the ruckus, then they'll just make themselves look like idiots.
 
RV8R999 said:
read it..blah, blah, blah..


I'm not buying into the hysteria...I don't see it first hand at all. Just my limited perspective and .01
Click to expand...
And that's your problem. Your perspective is limited.

You've got lots of people coming up to you at airports and telling you how much they love your plane and how much they love RV's. And you've got no one coming up to you at airports and telling you that they think RV pilots are reckless yahoos who are dangerous. So you deduce that most people love RV's and very few people look upon the RV community as being full of reckless individuals. Just because you don't meet them doesn't mean they aren't out there. Very very few people who look dimly upon RV pilots are likely to walk up to you at the airport and tell you so.

What would the upside be if a stranger were to confront you like that and tell you that they believe people who fly RV's are dangerous? At best you would tell the person to sit and spin. At worst, you would give them a knuckle sandwich. So no one is going to confront and tell you that. You're not seeing them, but I can assure you they are there.

So I cannot say it any more clearly than this. There are many pilots out there who take a dim view of RV pilots because of the antics of a few. If you think that is not the case, you are only fooling yourself.

alpinelakespilot2000 said:
As more and more RV's populate the aviation world, it will become clear that the vast majority are good, sometimes even great, responsible pilots who care deeply about flying and general aviation. We should do every thing we can to show that and then let the chips fall where they may.
Click to expand...

I'm going to disagree. Aviation is a very small community and its getting smaller all the time. It simply doesn't have the critical mass required to make that sort of plan work. If you want to prove this yourself try the following experiment. Go to your local airport and find a group of pilots. Then tell them that you're thinking of buying a Cessna Cardinal and ask them what they know about the model. Then take out a stop watch and count how long it takes for someone to say that they're underpowered and slow. If it takes longer than 12 seconds, I'll eat a bug.

When Cessna introduced the Cardinal, it has 150hp and was indeed underpowered. In the years that followed, horsepower was increased and other modifications were added and for majority of the years it was produced, it was a very decent performer. The first model year was slow and underpowered and all the other years were much better. But the reputation was cast and all these years later, it remains so.

RV pilots have already earned a reputation in the community and if you think the solution is to simply wait for people to realize that the reputation is undeserved, I think you're going to be very disappointed with the results.

L.Adamson said:
Someone in the AOPA should reign these guys in.
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Reign them in how exactly? The person has an opinion and they stated it. Are you suggesting that AOPA force them to keep their opinions to themselves? I don't really think that's in the cards.
 
tkatc said:
I think at this point the best thing to do would be to STOP reading THIS thread, the PoA thread AND the AOPA thread. In a few days you will be able to think clearer and possibly let it go. Just do YOUR part and be the best pilot you can be and let the chips fall where they will.
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+1

Great advice..
 
Disagree

Walt said:
It may be painful, but there is some truth to what is being said on those other forums.
Just my opinion (flame suit on) :eek:
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Actually I disagree here

The professionalism, safe minded, thorough, and confident rv community is second to none and it?s proven.
 
Well Joe - all of our perspectives are limited aren't they?

While I agree the people who don't like us are unlikely to tell us to our faces you can't undo a REAL positive experience by a perceived or imagined negative one.

Somewhere these haters must exist in large numbers right? I mean why is everyone so fired up about the haters and our reputation if these people are unwilling to show themselves? Where are they? Who are they? Posters on AOPA and POA forums? Of the thousands upon thousand of pilots in the world a few forum haters and we are all running scared... c'mon. CFI's across the country screaming about their confused students when a flight of two executes a perfectly safe and legal OB and this makes us wonder if the OB is ok?

Certainly there are RV pilots who routinely fly haphazardly. If you know any, help save their lives and have a chat, or hope they read something here someday and wise up, otherwise they will take care of themselves - natural selection.

The fact remains a vast majority of pilots like RV's and the pilots who fly them and I am meeting new ones everyday. I have yet to see a breakfast fly-in, in which peoples children are present, restrict RV pilots from attending or an airshow NOT have a special place for us. I don't recall the EAA forbidding RV pilots from participating in the numerous Young Eagles events flown regularly by many of us. We are welcomed with open arms into peoples back yards, hangars, and homes. We have several demonstration teams. In fact, we tend to even like each other - If we are so bad how could we stand ourselves? RV Pilots offering a 17 year old kid a place to stay simply because he is flying an RV around the country - we are pretty great group of pilots if you ask me. Ever stopped what you are doing to go help a friend who's RV is busted? Ever been helped when your RV was busted? What happens when an RV pilot finds himself broken somewhere far from home..an army of RV pilots they've never met come out of the word work to help them out! Isn't limited to helping just RV pilots either. I just pulled the battery out of my truck to help a guy jump start his Cessna Skylane who's battery died overnight. Sound like a bunch of crazy lunatics to you? We've got a bunch or RV pilots who dedicate 100's of hours a year saving dogs by transporting them across the country to new homes. The good deeds go on and on and on...

If RV pilots were so widely despised how is it they have been and continue to be the leading kit purchased throughout the world? Doesn't the consumer respond to badness by taking business elsewhere? Don't most RV builders start out as pilots of other aircraft first? If so, how is it they choose the RV if they hate the people who fly them so much? Do they really want to become apart of the group they believe to be such bad apples of aviation?

It is time to stop feeding the hype, get your chins up, strap that RV on in the morning and take her for a spin and be **** proud of it!

Spanky OUT!
 
joe gremlin said:
Reign them in how exactly? The person has an opinion and they stated it. Are you suggesting that AOPA force them to keep their opinions to themselves? I don't really think that's in the cards.
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Yes............a bit of moderation if required. Afterall, the AOPA would prefer our continued support also. AOPA's home page has a link to these forums, for new comers that are interested in questions and answers. I do not believe that leaders of this organization would be content with forum content that's driving a wedge between different groups of pilots.

L.Adamson
 
kevinsrv7.com said:
Actually I disagree here

The professionalism, safe minded, thorough, and confident rv community is second to none and it?s proven.
Click to expand...

Neither agreeing nor disagreeing, but would like a reference to the proof you quote. I would love to be able to reference this in many places.
 
JV, go read the info on RVFlightSafety.org

Statistics are subject to misinterpretation but it is clear that we can and must do much better. We should be the best within the GA community but are not.
 
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