Strong Crosswind, not a great outcome

[GLPalinkas]

Originally Posted by Ironflight

........ I generally try to land diagonally on the runway - that buys a little margin. Paul

Ditto here. However, I did manage to do a mild ground loop with my wife aboard once.... Told her I was just trying to make a quick turn off.

Glad all is well Steve and we are all here learning a thing or three.

By the way, count me in the stick all the way back crowd. Good or bad, I also start bringing the flaps up on the roll out as quickly as I can.

[DaAV8R]

Originally Posted by scsmith

If it isn't, how would you ever get the wheel to unlock when you want it to?

My 120 has a Scott 3200 which is a heavy duty tail wheel for the airframe. Takes a pretty good stab on a brake to get the tail wheel to swivel when taxiing.

The 120 has enough adverse yaw that full aileron deflection into the wind will result in a track to the downwind ditch if left unchecked with a minor crosswind. I have only flown an RV once but suspect that most of the adverse yaw has been eliminated thru aileron differential. Maybe someone with experience in the RV can comment on this.

[rvbuilder2002]

Originally Posted by DaAV8R

My 120 has a Scott 3200 which is a heavy duty tail wheel for the airframe. Takes a pretty good stab on a brake to get the tail wheel to swivel when taxiing.

The 120 has enough adverse yaw that full aileron deflection into the wind will result in a track to the downwind ditch if left unchecked with a minor crosswind. I have only flown an RV once but suspect that most of the adverse yaw has been eliminated thru aileron differential. Maybe someone with experience in the RV can comment on this.

My only comment is that I didn't understand the comment regarding adverse yaw induced by the ailerons on a tail dragger RV having an effect on the landing characteristics.
Adverse yaw in flight is nearly nonexistent at higher speeds. There is some once you begin to get slow, but even then it is still minimal compared to a lot of airplanes. I guess at low speed and high AOA (three point attitude) it might have some influence but I have never noticed it.

[boomer]

Originally Posted by scsmith

Well, its confession time. After 400+ hrs in the RV-8, and over 500 hrs of total tailwheel time, I just groundlooped the RV-8. Fortunately nothing damaged but my ego and confidence. But...

Does this look familiar?

https://youtu.be/mK8_wfAFWEA

This video was taken on the dash cam of my RV-8 a year or two ago at Sulphur Springs Airport (KSLR). I can certainly identify with the feeling of helplessness when the aircraft CG moves outside the main gear and keeps going forward and sideways. Full rudder and brake didn't do a thing.

A couple of thoughts:

1. You may notice from the wind sock that I had a left quartering headwind. The AWOS said 17 knots, however the sock doesn't seem to be extended as much as I would have expected. You may not be able to tell, but there is a line of trees which parallels the runway on the left for the first 1200' or so, and that line of trees turns to the left and extends on a 45 deg. angle for a few more thousand feet. Google Earth clearly shows this. My guess is that this tree line blocked most of the crosswind until I lowered the tail on my wheel landing, when it effectively funneled the full force of the wind onto the runway at the point where things started going to pot.

2. You may hear some tire screeching during the first portion of the loop. That was the tail wheel, which was well scuffed. The mains were fine. I didn't have the stick full aft when I lowered the nose, which is a habit I have since worked on. BTW, it is a bit difficult to get full aft stick in and -8 with the aileron displaced, which compounds the problem.

3. You probably can't tell, but I lowered the tail early in the ground roll rather than waiting until it wouldn't stay up any longer. IMO, that contributed to the situation as you can see that the nose started to go left as soon as I lowered the nose. I don't do that anymore.

4. Finally, once I realized I no longer had control of the plane, I remembered an old Air Force instructors words: "Sometimes the plane knows how to fly when you don't". I just let off of the rudder and let it do what it wanted. It immediately stopped looping and straightened out, albeit 90 deg. to runway heading. Since the ground was wet I immediately added power once I was in the grass and under control again and was able to taxi back onto the runway with no damage other than mud inside my wheel pants and a scuffed tail wheel.

So here's my take: Keep the tail up as long as it will fly. Keep the stick full aft once the tail wheel is on the ground. Only land in a crosswind when no one is looking.

-John

P.S. Forget everything. A review of the video showed a black crow which flew just across my nose just before things started getting interesting. I have decided to blame the ominous crow instead of anything I did. ;-)

[Alan Carroll]

Originally Posted by boomer

So here's my take: Keep the tail up as long as it will fly. Keep the stick full aft once the tail wheel is on the ground. Only land in a crosswind when no one is looking.

-John

P.S. Forget everything. A review of the video showed a black crow which flew just across my nose just before things started getting interesting. I have decided to blame the ominous crow instead of anything I did. ;-)

Very funny!

I'll add another: don't believe all the crosswind claims that you might read on the internet!

[gereed75]

Well after many posts. There seems no clear consensus on many of the points. I am going with:

Shorten horn to reduce unlocking tendency

Aileron into the wind

Hold tail off as long as possible

Center rudder as tail touches

Full aft stick (aileron still into wind)

Ready on brakes and power

Clench butt cheeks

Did I miss anything?

[bruceg]

Hi Gary,

I recommend you don't center the rudder as the tail touches. The tailwheel angle as the tail touches will be working in your favor, helping to steer you away from the wind. Releasing rudder in a strong crosswind can set you up for loss of directional control.
Some practice at an airport that gives you a smooth 20k direct crosswind is great for tuning up technique in the 8.

[DanH]

Moving the rudder horn attach point inboard does two things; the tailwheel is less sensitive when on the ground, and it buys some additional margin before swivel release at full rudder deflection.

I'm not a big fan of chains, or the crappy little wire clips most folks use to attached them. It's too easy to build nicropressed cable assemblies.

[snopercod]

This was the result of a bad crosswind landing in my plane. The poor tire gave its life to keep me on the runway...

[luddite42]

Originally Posted by gereed75

Well after many posts. There seems no clear consensus on many of the points. I am going with:

...Hold tail off as long as possible

I don't know about the RV-8 but in other RVs you can hold the tail up so long with elevator that the rudder has very little authority by the time the tail quits flying with full forward stick. Does not seem advantageous in gusty/x-wind conditions. How is the RV-8, and what is the logic? Most tailwheel airplanes have a middle phase between 3-pt touchdown speed, and the speed at which the tail will no longer fly that is the sweet spot for lowering the tail under control.