VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.

  #1  
Old 07-01-2020, 11:39 PM
donaziza's Avatar
donaziza donaziza is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 879
Default Barrel rolls.

There's another post here on doing decent aileron rolls. I'm gonna try em tomorrow. (Feet off the rudder pedals, but most importantly, no back stick, keep your hand open. Can someone walk me thru how to do a decent barrel roll? Mine are terrible, especially to the right. A lotta times, when I do them to the right, I pretty much go almost straight down. My left ones are better. I'm pulling back on the stick, while rolling say to the left, and then coming out so so, mostly not a very great so so. Don't know if I should be using rudders or not. I learned them 55 years ago in a T 28, but they were pretty bad then too. Supossed to be a great move for getting on the enemy's 6, so he hopefully flies by you while you're manuvering vertically.

Help

Last edited by donaziza : 07-01-2020 at 11:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-02-2020, 12:25 AM
wcalvert's Avatar
wcalvert wcalvert is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Anacortes Wa
Posts: 464
Default Technique

Reading your post, I'm not so sure you have a good picture of what a "good" barrel roll should look like.
Think back to your T-28 days. Just like a good pattern, you need some check points to hit to make it all work out right. This is how I taught hundreds of young naval aviators how to do a barrel roll.

Start on a good lead in line, clear your airspace, then start the nose up as you start the roll. Aim for 45 degrees off heading, 45 degrees nose up, 45 degrees angle of bank (AOB). 90 off, 90 AOB, nose slicing the horizon.

Keep the roll rate constant and hit the 45 low, 45 off and 135 AOB. Aquire the lead line and work out the end of the roll to be wings level, nose on the horizon on the lead in line.

A good roll should end up back on heading, altitude and airspeed.

This should be done mostly outside, with an occasional glance inside to check your AOB.
Rudders should be used to maintain coordinated flight, not to "get your nose around" or whatever.

If you find yourself burying the nose coming through inverted, try speeding up your roll rate a bit. My experience teaching was with jets, and your plane may accel/decel differently, but if you hit the numbers, you'll do a good barrel roll.

Good luck and have fun!
__________________
RV-7 Tipper
Bill (Wild) VA-165 '90-'93
Anacortes, Wa

First Flight 7/17/2021!! 200 hours 6/22
- Been there, Donated 2022
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-02-2020, 06:43 AM
sandifer sandifer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 667
Default

I disagee that a good aileron roll is done with your feet on the floor, but you can definitely do that if you're just getting started and want to simplify things for the ol' brain to manage. And I hope you pitch up a bit first.

But a barrel roll has few standards other than hopefully having the same entry/exit altitudes. The positive G "aileron" rolls that most RVs pilots do are actually tight barrel rolls (corkscrew flight path). How much heading displacement you achieve is up to you, but the biggest mistake folks make is not reaching the highest point of the roll before completing half of the roll. If you've reached the point where you're descending before reaching wings level inverted, you're going to exit fast and off heading. Use the rudder simply to counter the slight bit of adverse yaw from the ailerons. Reach the apex of the "barrel" and the inverted attitude simultaneously.

If you're pulling throughout the roll with a large heading displacement (up to 90 degrees on top), you'll want to unload a little back pressure and float over the top just the same as you'd do for a loop, which is basically what this is- combined loop and roll.

Competition acro on occasion still sees the quarter clover done in Sportsman, which is a half barrel roll, either up or down. You could aim for some precision standards by combining the two quarter clovers. The idea is to roll with a constant roll rate, a round 'looping segment, evenly integrate the rolling/pitching (not doing any rolling without pitching and vice versa), and hit your 90 degree heading on top simultaneously with reaching wings level inverted. Same idea on the way back down - keep the roll/pitch integration going and reach your original entry heading simultaneous with rolling wings level upright at the same altitude you started.

But most folks who do barrel rolls for fun don't put that much effort into them, and use somewhat less heading displacement on top.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-02-2020, 08:19 AM
rvbuilder2002's Avatar
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,836
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandifer View Post
Reach the apex of the "barrel" and the inverted attitude simultaneously.

unload a little back pressure and float over the top just the same as you'd do for a loop, which is basically what this is- combined loop and roll.
I have found these two points to be key in doing a symmetrical barrel roll
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Hubbard, Oregon
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop
FAA/DAR
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-02-2020, 07:53 PM
donaziza's Avatar
donaziza donaziza is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 879
Default

I swear I'm doing exactly what all 3 of you guys are saying. BUT---I will print all 3 of your answers, study as much as I can, and then even take them up with me, and read them again, just before I try em. (My instructor 55 years ago, was Navy, but I think all of them just figured, if you could sorta do it, it was good enough.) I watch that military history channel all the time, and they always imply, a barrel roll was one of the best ways to get a zero, to shoot past you, and thus become the target vs the predator. Seemed to work pretty good in Vietnam also with F-8's and F-4's.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-02-2020, 08:44 PM
N804RV's Avatar
N804RV N804RV is offline
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Mount Vernon, Wa
Posts: 918
Default

This is a great old video on barrel rolls. Notice how he used the road intersection to hit the cardinal points of the roll.

In addition, a lot of folks say the nose should scribe a circle around a feature on the horizon 45 degrees from entry heading in the direction of the roll.

https://vimeo.com/371406144
__________________
Ken W.
Mount Vernon, WA
2022 VAF Supporter

Last edited by N804RV : 07-02-2020 at 08:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-02-2020, 10:12 PM
donaziza's Avatar
donaziza donaziza is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 879
Default

Eric, disregard where I told you to go for "feet flat on the floor". I sent you to the wrong thread. Its here instead

Scott Hersha Scott Hersha is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,437
Default
Here?s how I did my first few rolls, trying to do as Van advised in an early version of the RVator.....

At 140-150 KIAS level flight, maintaining your power setting throughout, pull the nose up to 30* nose up. Let go of the back pressure for a couple seconds, wings level (the nose will stay there, briefly), then just push the stick to the left (or right) with your feet flat on the floor. Don?t push or pull on the stick, don?t use your rudder, just apply aileron movement. Watch the world go around, and when you come out at the end of it, you should be about where you were when you started. Your nose will be pitched down maybe 15*, but your airspeed won?t be excessive, and you can recover to level flight without much G force. You might notice a little wallowing on the top because your airspeed is decaying, and you aren?t using your feet, but there is very little adverse aileron yaw in these airplanes, so until you get comfortable, don?t worry about using rudder input. A little later, rudder input will make the roll a little quicker and crisper, but it is just as fun to do it the way I suggested.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-03-2020, 03:54 AM
Saville's Avatar
Saville Saville is offline
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: KBVY Massachusetts
Posts: 1,279
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by N804RV View Post
This is a great old video on barrel rolls. Notice how he used the road intersection to hit the cardinal points of the roll.

In addition, a lot of folks say the nose should scribe a circle around a feature on the horizon 45 degrees from entry heading in the direction of the roll.

https://vimeo.com/371406144
That is a good video. Thanks for posting that.
__________________
Flying RV-8 N880BC
2022 Dues - happily paid.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-03-2020, 04:41 AM
ronschreck's Avatar
ronschreck ronschreck is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 1,719
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by donaziza View Post
I watch that military history channel all the time, and they always imply, a barrel roll was one of the best ways to get a zero, to shoot past you, and thus become the target vs the predator. Seemed to work pretty good in Vietnam also with F-8's and F-4's.
A true barrel roll is pretty easy to follow. You are probably referring to a high G barrel roll which is really a last ditch maneuver designed to break a tracking solution. Zeros and MIGs are more lightly wing loaded than F-8s and F-4s so a close-in turning fight should be avoided. One pass, haul a** worked well!
__________________
Ron Schreck
RV-8, "Miss Izzy", 2250 Hours- Sold
My Aerobatic Video
My Formation Video
CAF B-25 - Airbase Arizona
VAF 2022 Donor
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-03-2020, 08:32 AM
FinnFlyer FinnFlyer is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Bell, FL
Posts: 671
Default

From a RV-3 non-aerobatic pilot's perspective:

Start at 140 - 160 mph level.
Rudder neutral.
Pull back on the stick until it looks like you're at a 45 angle (probably more like 15 to 30 degrees in actuality).
Release back pressure -- neutral elevator.
Briskly but smoothly move the stick all the way to the left (or right).
Probably a novices biggest mistake is being hesitant about quickly moving the stick all the way to the left (or right).
Wait till the horizon is coming around and move the stick back to neutral to roll out to level.

Yes, rolls to the right are a bit harder, going against the torque of the prop.

When you have done this until you can easily see what's happening, you can start refining it.

A bit of rudder helps when rolling out.

Lower entry speeds -- the lower the entry speed the higher the nose have to be before applying aileron.

Rudder to assist keeping altitude in slower rolls.

I'm sure my "rolls" are not pretty from the ground -- but fun in the cockpit.

High entry speed and nose really high if you want the horizon to come around three times and not roll out in a dive

Finn
__________________
N214FL RV-4 Mazda 13B Renesis First flight 20 Feb 2021
N46AZ RV-3B Mazda 13B EFI -- Bought -- Flying
N993FL RV-3A Mazda 13B NA 575 hours
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:56 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.