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Superior Air Parts 1967-2008

Thank you for all the help you have provided to VAF and all us RV builders / flyers. You will be missed.
 
Great Company

I just want to thank the people at Superior for all there help and support. They are a great group of professional people that were instrumental in the building of my engine and a big help with my install. Any issues were taken care of, no matter how big or small the problem was. When the light weight sump had to be changed they sent all the parts and payed me for my labor ( no questions asked). I hope they reamerge bigger and stronger and that many of the same people remain. Who ever gets Superior will be getting a very fine engine company!
 
I hope you land on your feet soon - these names seem too big to just go away!

Seems that the cylinder assembly portion is not included, per the article.
 
A sad day indeed!

Superior has been instrumental in improving the breed, in many cases doing what Lycoming did not want to do. They have also shown the incumbents how to handle recalls and service issues by being up front and generous in making it right for the customer. We can only hope Lycoming will acquire and keep some of these positive aspects along with the rest of the assets they are taking over.

Having owned both new Lycoming and Superior engines the difference was obvious to me.

Martin Sutter
building and flying RV's since 1988
 
AlexPeterson said:
...Seems that the cylinder assembly portion is not included, per the article.
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Only the Continental cylinders are excluded. Lycoming has no use for those.

Looks all we have to look forward to is less competition and higher prices for engine parts. I doubt Lycoming will carry on with Superior's nice FI sump, crankcase and soon-to-would-have-been roller tappet retrofit.

I just hope ECI stays in the game...

Heinrich Gerhardt
RV-6, flying, with ECI and Superior parts!
 
Too bad. Competition is always a good thing for us customers.

At least we still have ECI putting competitive pressures on Lycoming.
 
competition?

We can only hope Lycoming will acquire and keep some of these positive aspects along with the rest of the assets they are taking over. Having owned both new Lycoming and Superior engines the difference was obvious to me. [/QUOTE said:
The news item made it clear that Lyc bought "only the assets". If you want to help keep prices low, service high, we need to keep some competition. This means seriously considering ECI if all other things are considered equal. My .02 worth:cool:

Bevan
Click to expand...
 
Actually only some TCM cylinders

If I read this correctly Lyc just doesn't want anything to do with some specific cylinders - the ones that have some liability risks for them. Cut and pasted in from ANN


"Excluded Cylinder Assembly Assets. all Regulatory Approvals relating to Seller?s cylinder assemblies for TCM IO-520, TSIO-520, and IO-550 reciprocating engines covered by a proposed FAA Airworthiness Directive (?AD?), Docket No. FAA-2007-0051"

It is a sad day indeed. I have a Superior engine and I think they were a great supplier and they kept OEM's honest. Too bad my warranty ended early...

I really feel for the guys there at Superior, they are first rate and I hope they end up on their feet.

hgerhardt said:
Only the Continental cylinders are excluded. Lycoming has no use for those.

Looks all we have to look forward to is less competition and higher prices for engine parts. I doubt Lycoming will carry on with Superior's nice FI sump, crankcase and soon-to-would-have-been roller tappet retrofit.

I just hope ECI stays in the game...

Heinrich Gerhardt
RV-6, flying, with ECI and Superior parts!
Click to expand...
 
Not only am I sad for myself (I love my Superior engine), I am very sad for all the folk at Superior who I met at their facility when I built my engine. They are all great people and they will be missed. I'm hoping we will see them again in the industry. Best wishes.

Also, to the VAF members who speak legalese, I notice that #7 in the list of Lycoming's acquisition included warranty. I'm assuming that means warranty from 3rd party suppliers to them, not that they bought up our warranties?
 
No wonder it was taking an extremely long time to get reimbursed for the cold-air sump change. $600 I'll never see.
 
I never did understand their desire to get into the "certified engine" business to begin with, and secondly the weird tie to the crooks at Theilert. Someone made some money off of that $10Mil+ transaction, but it appears to have been the death knoll. The company survived for almost 40 years through various rocky aviation markets, and in the span of two years manages to completely go to heck. I might be wrong, but I'd bet that financially the Thielert fraud thing didn't help.

Anyway, it's sad. I agree that the people, parts and competition were great, and the fact that Textron is removing that from the market might not help keep costs down. Hopefully ECI continues down their relatively conservative path...someone has to keep the market in check! My engine is a mishmash of Superior, Lyco and ECI parts. So much for one of those outlets.

Stein
 
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ECI's real and only competitor was Superior, not Lycoming. On most engine engine parts Lycoming's prices are 2,3X what the other two were in the marketplace. So I expect ECI's parts to go up in price.

One other negative aspect of this...ECI's parts catalog is considerably smaller than Superiors. In a recent overhaul I did there were quite a few parts I ordered that only Superior or Lycoming made. So in a lot of instances, quite a few parts will only be available from Lycoming and now they can charge whatever they want for them. Or ECI can now start producing them, and charge close to what Lycoming's charging.

One example of this was when ECI came out with an angled oil filter adapter. When they introduced the part it was $187.00. A few months went by and the price went up to $287 once someone in their marketing dept. figured out they were charging significantly less than the competition.
 
Wow. And I ordered my Superior cold-air sump kit from A.E.R.O yesterday.


I wasn't really paying attention, but I did not see this coming.
 
Superior Air Parts - Chapter 11

I received a package today from attorneys representing Superior Air Parts regarding motions for selling their assets.
I knew they had been bought out but didn't know they were at this stage.

Not sure how it impacts me as I am out of warranty on my engine.

Superior treated me very well over the last few years relating to the new sump & crank seal replacement. Even though I was out of warranty at the time, they were quick to send me parts at no charge & paid me labor for the repairs.
 
Sad to hear, sounded like a great company to have in the engine business
 
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Lycoming to own Superior?

I also have been very happy with my O360 from Superior and like you I received the fat envelope tonight. In 2006 Superior was bought by Thielert and are now caught up in the Thielert engine mess. The way I read the legaleeze, "Avco Corporation, a wholly owned subsidiary of Textron Inc" is proposing to buy Superior for $11.5 million. Textron own Avco which owns Lycoming. So now Lycoming could end up owning Superior. This may not be good news for those that want competition in the engine market.
 
Dropped by Superior in Coppell today..

.. just to see if the lights were still on. They were and I had a nice chat with them. As those who have received the 'big packets' already know, its a real deal. They filed on 12/31. The lights go out in a couple of weeks. Here is what I found out FWIW:

Lycs parent (Textron/Avco) bought the assets (parts, drawings, certifications, PMAs etc). Looking at the big photo-posters on the office walls of what they produced, $11M is a steal (IMHO)

They are keeping the engineering group, at least for now. No speculation why or whether they will stay on long term.

Since it was Lycs parent co. that bought them, for now at least, Lyc and Superior are sister companies. (Some news reports indicate that the XP business will stay. Didn't explore that).

No warranty support. Only assets were bought. (that's pretty standard, as bad as it is for the victims). Legally, warranties are honored by the bankrupt shell that's left after all the good stuff is gone.


If you have placed any deposits or pre-paid orders, you are now a creditor of the bankrupt shell. The $11M received in the buyout will go towards satisfying creditors. If you don't hear from the bankruptcy court very soon, contact them (sorry, don't know which one, call Superior while you can) and get on the list.

Eagle Engines bought a whole bunch of parts just before this went down.

The Thielert fiasco hurt a bunch. Thielert did the final machining on Superior's cylinders among other things. Other factors were mentioned, too, some of which have been in the news. Curiously, the economic downturn wasn't cited as a root cause. Business was OK if not spectacular. Foreign sales were pretty good, still.

Myself, I'm bummed. This was the year I was going to stroll down the street and buy my engine.What a great outfit. I recall when my buddy Ken built his engine from a kit with the help of an AP/IA. The guy showed us side by side with a Lyc the improvements that Superior had made in the whole engine. Bigger webs here, beefier parts there. Just, well, superior. Later, we dropped in at Coppell to get a couple of (free) bolts. Somehow, we got on to a prop I was considering and whether/why it might have RPM limitations etc and were blabbing on about it when (Bill?) charged out of his office and gave us a 10 min. symposium on torsional resonances and testing methods / procedures as they pertained to a 4 cyl engine / prop combination. Nice.
 
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Superior Chapter 11

I also got the fat stack of paper from the friendly lawyers at Strasburger and Price of Austin Texas today. It contains four seperate very lengthy documents full of legal babble.

All are motions filed by Strasburger and Price, proposed attorneys for debtor Superior Air Parts Inc. in the US Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Texas.

Motions I recieved copies of are as follows:

Debtor's expedited motion to approve bid proceedures for sale of substatially all of debtor's assets free and clear of leins

Debtor's expedited motion to approve bid proceedures for sale of subtiantially all of debtor's assets free and clear of leins

Debtor's motion for expedited heaing of motions filed by debtor on January 2, 2008

and Debtor's motion for order setting bar date for claims.

I am not a lawyer and I do not know what these documents mean and exactly how this will impact me and other XP owners. I fear the 2.5 years of remaining warranty that came with my new XPIO360 engine is might be considered a liability which goes away with the sale.

As others have stated, it seems that Textron buying them in a chapter 11 state that means they get the goods with no obligations. The seller will not likely be in a position to give any remedy to a warranty claim.

These motions are asking for creditors to speak up if there are objections. Of course, as a purchaser of a new engine, I am not OK with losing my warranty and have no idea how to respond or if customers have any recourse at all.

I would need to hire a laywer to even know if it is advisable to hire a lawyer at this point. Just checking with others that might be going through the same thing to see if some sort of cooperation is in order and if anyone thinks we have any recourse to protect our investment. Perhaps there is some leverage to entice Lycoming to stand behind customers who just bought engines.

As far as post warranty support, anybody know if there are there many Lyco or ECi parts that will not fit on a Superior roller tappet engine?
 
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whifof100ll said:
I got a nice fat stack of paper from the friendly lawyers at Strasburger and Price of Austin Texas today. It contains four seperate very lengthy documents full of legal babble.

All are motions filed by Strasburger and Price, proposed attorneys for debtor Superior Air Parts Inc. in the US Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Texas.

Motions I recieved copies of are as follows:

Debtor's expedited motion to approve bid proceedures for sale of substatially all of debtor's assets free and clear of leins

Debtor's expedited motion to approve bid proceedures for sale of subtiantially all of debtor's assets free and clear of leins

Debtor's motion for expedited heaing of motions filed by debtor on January 2, 2008

and Debtor's motion for order setting bar date for claims.

I am not a lawyer and I do not know what these documents mean and exactly how this will impact me. I fear the three year warranty that came with my new XPIO360 engine might be considered a liability which goes away with the sale.

Looks like Textron is buying them in a chapter 11 state that means they get the good with no obligations.

Of course, as a purchaser of a new engine, I am not OK with this and have no idea how to respond.

I would need to hire a laywer to even know if it is advisable to hire a lawyer at this point. Just checking with others that might be going through the same thing to see that the thoughts and plans might be. Perhaps cooperation is in order to protect our investment.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm no lawyer either. However, it would seem that you need to weigh the likelihood of a major engine problem in the first three years (unlikely) against the sure thing of $300/hour plus legal fees. Legal fees add up alarmingly fast. If it were me, I'd try to ignore it all and go fly. The engine won't know it doesn't have a warranty! Good luck!
 
AlexPeterson said:
Well, I'm no lawyer either. However, it would seem that you need to weigh the likelihood of a major engine problem in the first three years (unlikely) against the sure thing of $300/hour plus legal fees. Legal fees add up alarmingly fast. If it were me, I'd try to ignore it all and go fly. The engine won't know it doesn't have a warranty! Good luck!
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same, last evening, when I read the poster's question. My "then new" Lycoming is now "far" out of warrenty, now that it's flying. It just doesn't bother me. Lyc did pay for a piston pin check, under an 1998 AD which amounted to about $600. Turns out the pins were the proper ones all along.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Incompatible Parts for Superior Engines

whifof100ll said:
As far as post warranty support, anybody know if there are there many Lyco or ECi parts that will not fit on a Superior roller tappet engine?
Click to expand...

Dale:
The only parts that you cannot supply your engine with from either Lycoming or ECI are the roller tappets/camshaft.

The Superior roller tappets were a unique design to the company. The set screw method of ensuring the tappet did not rotate in the case was developed so that Superior could make minor modifications to their existing cases and install roller tappets. The sole supplier of Superior's tappets does not make them anymore (I think Thielert was the actual manufacturer) , and Superior has no stock.

Unfortunately, you will not be able to put Lycoming roller tappets into your engine as a direct replacement because Lycoming's method of securing the tappets is significantly different (they rebored the cases with squared ports to prohibit the lifter from rotating.) I haven't measured, but I think diameter of the Lycoming roller tappet may also be different.

Someone could develop an aftermarket tappet for those engines, but with only 600-750 Superior engines in the field the cost of development and the liability factors may make the ROI of that option too much of a financial risk for anyone to take on.

If you have to replace the tappets and want to keep the engine as a roller tappet engine, you will have to replace the crankcases/camshaft/tappets and probably the pushrods with new components from Lycoming. There may be an option available to convert the Superior roller tappet engines back to flat tappet engines. This would be the most cost effective solution for you.

Hope this information is helpful, if somewhat speculative.
 
Man I feel sorry for anyone that had a deposit placed on any Superior engines. Sure hope nobody is left in this situation. This brings back some horror stories I remember reading about during the "Direct To Avionics" fiasco :eek:
 
Thanks for your responses

AlexPeterson said:
Well, I'm no lawyer either. However, it would seem that you need to weigh the likelihood of a major engine problem in the first three years (unlikely) against the sure thing of $300/hour plus legal fees. Legal fees add up alarmingly fast. If it were me, I'd try to ignore it all and go fly. The engine won't know it doesn't have a warranty! Good luck!
Click to expand...

Alex,

My experience is that machines do know when they are out of warranty and sometime react in a not so good way. To avoid problems, I won't mention anything around my airplane so the engine will continue to remain ignorant of it's warranty status and hopefully nothing bad will happen. Seriously, I certainly am not about to spend money to hire a lawyer and I do not really think there is anything we we can do short of taking care of our engines properly. I posted because I have a pile of documentation that suggest quick action if action is planned. I find when recieving a bunch of intimidating paperwork that I do not understand, it is very tempting to do nothing, which is what I will probably do in this case. I wrote the post in hopes that someone smarter than myself on legal issues (which should be easy to find) will have more insight. Your suggestion to go fly is certainly the best advice I have so far and I will certainly folllow it.


Rhonda,
Thanks fo the info. I hope the camshaft and tappets will last a long time and I expect they will. It sounds like in any case, there is probably a way to support the engine long into the future. I appreciate your insight.
 
I have a Superior IO-360. It is an absolutely beautiful and strong engine. My warranty expired without there ever being a hint of trouble.

Superior going out of business would be easier to take if they didn't make such great products.

Rhonda, also thanks for the info on the tappets.

Luis Luciani - RV8
 
Why???

I know there is just asking for speculation, but why did it all fall apart? Was it the problems with Thielert, the current economy, demand for parts or engines? Why did a company that put out good products fail?
 
Anti-trust in process with the Lycoming acquisition too. Might not get bought by them after all. I would speculate that it has to do with Therihart, but who knows really. Why were they bought in the first place? Were they every really making money?
 
SUPERIOR

According to AOPA the Texas attorney general is considering antitrust action, apparently to prevent the sale of Superior to any competitors. Superior rejected both the offers to buy assets and the company remains in bankruptcy.
 
The Texas AG has the right idea, and we should probably all send his office an email complimenting him for doing the right thing for consumers....meaning us.

Actually, I think I will.
 
Well, not that I am an expert on what is going on? But, I can offer what I know. Being that I am involved with a claim in the bankruptcy court I have been keeping up on the latest news. First I would like to say that Superior was nothing less than awesome. The XP-400 is, and could have been a great engine for the market. I will break it down as I see it.

1. Thielert buys Superior
2. Thielert goes bankrupt about 2 years later
3. Thielert looks for a buyer for Superior, and sets a deal up with Avco. 11.5 million
4. Files Chapter 11 as part of the deal with Avco (Free and Clear of all debts and liabilities)
5. Thielert files a claim for what appear to be millions (ballpark of 18 million) worth of debts Superior owes. (This was news to Superior, and being contested in court)
6. Continental placed a bid higher than Avco. (Unknown amount)
7. Feb 24th (Planned day of auction) Texas attorney general sends a letter warning of an antitrust investigation that is underway, and a case could be filed on the winning bidder. (quoted below)
8. Feb 26th Superior rejects both bids putting them back in Bankruptcy limbo.

This is some of the letter from the Texas Attorney General.

?As you are aware, the Office of the Attorney General is investigating the possibility of a reduction in competition in the market for replacement parts for piston?drive, general aviation engines in the State of Texas due to the proposed sale of Superior Air Parts, Inc. The proposed sale of substantially all of Superior?s assets to either Avco Corporation or Teledyne Technologies, Inc., poses serious concerns that sections 15.05(a) and/or (d) of the Texas Free Enterprise and Antitrust Act of 1983 may be violated.
?Due to the complex nature of the issues and our concerns about significant competitive harm, we expect that our investigation will continue into next month [March]. In order to complete our due diligence review we will send additional information requests in the form of Civil Investigative Demands or otherwise to obtain documentary material or sworn statements from persons with relevant knowledge.
??If our investigation reveals that the sale of Superior?s assets results in the buyer acquiring market power in the relevant market we reserve our rights to take appropriate legal action in a court of competent jurisdiction.?
 
Maybe...

this opens the door for someone to acquire Superior and operate it. Lyc or TCM probably will strip the equipment and kill the competition anyway.
Great company, great cylinders, great engines too. I love my XP 320.
I hold on to a little hope for Superior.
I'd like to have a chance to buy another engine from 'em.

Regards,
Chris
 
Now that sounds believable, Especially that part about TCM making a bid. That makes a ton of sense for them, since they've been looking to get into the LyClone market for a while.

I would think that if TCM got them, they would definitely keep the XP series, and probably the Vantage series too, making some real competition for Lycoming in that area.

Lycoming would probably chop everything. Continental could have a decent arguement against the antitrust case, and COULD be a good thing for us.
 
osxuser said:
Now that sounds believable, Especially that part about TCM making a bid. That makes a ton of sense for them, since they've been looking to get into the LyClone market for a while.

I would think that if TCM got them, they would definitely keep the XP series, and probably the Vantage series too, making some real competition for Lycoming in that area.

Lycoming would probably chop everything. Continental could have a decent arguement against the antitrust case, and COULD be a good thing for us.
Click to expand...


Dont you think that TCM and Lyc could have a unwritten ,unspoken agreement as to competing against each other? Im not making accusations, just saying that after all those years in business, the BIG2 would be stupid to step on each others toes. Ive seen this happen in many other market segments. It cant be called price fixing because there is no "formal" agreement. Rather a underlying respect for each others customers and pricing.
If this were the case, TCM would launch the Superior at Lyc set pricing and people would buy on loyalty not price. The "big2" could set the pricing levels as they wished. They would compete using marketing tools only and not price.
Just my 2c worth.
 
No I don't think so at all. Given the costs involved designing, testing, building, selling, and supporting these engines, I think they are charging fair values for them. Seriously, if they were making money hand over fist like you imply, Superior wouldn't be in chapter 11 would they?

No, Lycoming and Continental NEVER directly competed in our marketplace because aircraft can only take the kind of engine they are designed for, so no point in price competition there. Only recently with TCM purchasing Mattituck, the Lancairs than could engine in both the 550 and 540/580 and the LSA market have Lycoming and Continental directly competed.

On the other hand, they have consistantly competed for the opportunity to be choosen as the OEM for a given aircraft design. Really, they can't really build these things cheaper.
 
osxuser said:
Really, they can't really build these things cheaper.
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I beg to differ - enact tort reform and bring in "loser pays", and you'll cut a 1/3 off the price due to the liability disappearing.

But's that a whole 'nuther conversation...:D
 
airguy said:
I beg to differ - enact tort reform and bring in "loser pays", and you'll cut a 1/3 off the price due to the liability disappearing.

But's that a whole 'nuther conversation...:D
Click to expand...

Well yeah but... in the current environment. :D
 
All I know personally is there seems to be a growing shortage of engine parts for ECI to get there hands on, to handle the unexpected closure of Superior, and increased demand for ECI engines.

I believe there is a back log forming...any input from sun and fun on my comments would be very helpful in this thread. May be DR could interview ECI over the week to see what their official statement is in regard to picking up most of Superiors potential customers unexpectedly.:confused:
 
Update?

Anyone have an update on where Superior is in the process? Are they closed, producing anything, etc? What is the status of the AG's action?
 
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