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  #11  
Old 06-29-2012, 06:16 AM
Bob Axsom Bob Axsom is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,685
Default I bought one roll of Black 3M 471 tape from Amazon

It must have been the next to last roll - it cost $50. I plan to try it at Three Forks - Big Sky Air Race. I will not buy that last roll at $817. I will keep the others in mind - Thanks!

Bob Axsom
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  #12  
Old 06-29-2012, 11:51 AM
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rvmills rvmills is offline
 
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Location: Georgetown, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sig600 View Post
I can attest to Bob's affinity for tape. It would not be hard to convince the uninitiated that his plane was actually held together with the stuff.
What...it's not?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Axsom View Post
I like that. Excuse me while I check out Amazon's stock of dark blue 3M 471. I had a very informative conversation with Red Hamilton at Ephrata before the GNAR III. He has me thinking in the direction of more power.

Bob Axsom
Now yer talkin'! Red's onto somethin' there...don't stop the drag reduction, but don't forget what Enzo Ferarri said either! (Quiz: inset quote here:_____________________________________________ _______)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydroguy2 View Post
Thinking?...10 more minutes waiting for your Cod lunch special and you guys would have started ordering parts and tearing down your motor.
Big chuckle...wish I was there...we'd have been on the phone or the ipad ordering!

Quote:
Originally Posted by N8RV View Post
With Nasty's recommendation, I thought I'd check out Amazon's selection of 3M tapes. I mean, if they had some GRAY tape, I just might give the AVC a try.

First off, you guys can relax. They don't have gray of any variety, so I won't be racing.

However, I did have to wonder how Amazon does their pricing. A 36-yard roll of black 1/2" 471 tape runs $13.71. However, a 36-yard roll of black 3/4" tape is $817.91! Must be what Bob Axom uses so much of and the price reflects the demand.

You guys have fun racing. I'll just keep putzing along ...
A. Putzing...yeah right...remember, I've flown your 8, and its magnificent! You really oughta think about doing AVC Don. The schtick at Mitchell is really fun. Part race, part airshow, part Young Eagles, part family fun, etc. Just a great time! As for the tape, white 471 is pricey, but would be fine on your mo-chine. Tom Martin uses white on his gray camo Rocket, and it looks good.

(Oh and psssssst...pretty sure $871 was for a case of 20...or more...rolls. Look closely as you scroll through those Amazon listings...seems they have no order to how they pop up. Colors are all mixed up, quantities change from item to item. Be careful what you click on to order. However, if you buy a case box in error, I'll buy some from ya...if its the right color! )

Mark Frederick has some gray stuff...though not sure what it is. Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_other_dougreeves View Post
Bowlus tape is used by many glider pilots who assemble (and install and remove tape) every weekend. Fairly low residue, slightly stretchy, durable.

TODR
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrik View Post
On my glider I use tape similar to Bowlus for the wings and stabilizer, i.e. parts that are rigged/derigged every day. For the leading edge of mylar tape seals we use Tesa 4104. It can't be streched like the Bowlus tape, but it is only half as thick and can stay on the plane for years without leaving residue. If you buy it from glider places like Wings And Wheels, you'll get white tape. But in fact it's available in various colors, even transparent.
Can you guys expand on the Bowlus, and perhaps point us in a direction the colored varieties might be available. I bought some mylar gap seals from W&W a few years ago and did some testing. The system included some 1" wide white tape that was slightly stretchy. It went above the mylar strips. Is that the bowlus tape? Willing to try alternatives...always researching. Colors would be nice to find too!

FWIW, couldn't keep the mylar system on the rudder or upper elevator...zipped right off above about 180 kts. Lower elevator stayed on, but I abandoned the effort and went with sealing just the hingepoint access holes on the rudder and elevator (with Jason Rovey's Smart Water bottle pieces and 471 tape).

Overall, it seems 1" tape works well for flat seams, like cowling halves, wingtips, light lenses, etc. 2" seems to work better on gear leg fairings, tail fairings or anywhere that has compound curves or are not flat (flush). But that is personal pref or just technique...really "more of a guideline that a rule"!

Cheers,
Bob
__________________
Bob Mills
RV-S6 "Rocket Six" N49VM
Cross Country-Marshall Field (07TS)
Georgetown, TX
President/Sport 49, Sport Class Air Racing
Trustee, Formation Flying Inc (FFI)

Last edited by rvmills : 06-29-2012 at 11:58 AM.
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  #13  
Old 06-29-2012, 03:27 PM
Bob Axsom Bob Axsom is offline
 
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Posts: 5,685
Default Power is a wall that I have to get past carefully

Yes I know the Ferrari quote about aerodynamics and power and unfortunately I belong in the "don't know" group. I trust and respect Red Hamilton and that is why I was so engrossed in the conversation with him at Ephrata before the Great Northwest Air Race III. He consistently beats everyone in his class and theoretically more powerful classes whether he flies his oldest Cessna 180 still in service or his Wittman W-10 Tailwind. I am fairly fast but he beats my by 20-30 mph with a 40 cu. in. smaller displacement engine. I can repeat the names Ly-con and Barrett, etc. as well as the next bumpkin but the pure knowledge is simply not there. I need that personally. Buying and bolting on is simply a change of state with no penetration into knowledge of the difference. I like the feeling that striving for optimum performance is a process and to make the right decisions I need to be an intellectual part of it. The money involved is outrageous and I feel many claims and promises are without merit. In that environment "trust and Respect" are precious.

Bob Axsom

Last edited by Bob Axsom : 06-30-2012 at 03:09 AM.
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  #14  
Old 07-05-2012, 03:47 PM
hendrik hendrik is offline
 
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Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 182
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The Bowlus type tape is fairly stretchy, so it's easy to get around corners, but it does come off when you stretch it too much, it might split, it's certainly not permanent. But for things like taping the wing-fuselage transition on a glider it's perfect. Think vinyl electrical tape.

The mylar tape on my control surfaces is held in place with double sided tape, and then the Tesa 4104 is put over the leading edge of the mylar to make that transition smoother. The Tesa is not supposed to hold the mylar in place. Again, my only experience is with gliders, and the vne in mine is 100 kts (low for a modern glider, but my glider is older than I am ...), so I can't comment on 180 kts performance. But I've only seen the mylar tapes come off when they were a few years old. I also suspect the Tesa 4104 alone will stay on at 180 kts, since it has good adhesion and is very thin (< 3 thou).

BTW, I've had 4104 strips along the leading edge of my wings for ~60 hours now, and they show no signs of weakness yet.
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  #15  
Old 07-05-2012, 10:02 PM
the_other_dougreeves the_other_dougreeves is offline
 
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Location: Dallas, TX (ADS)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvmills View Post
Can you guys expand on the Bowlus, and perhaps point us in a direction the colored varieties might be available. I bought some mylar gap seals from W&W a few years ago and did some testing. The system included some 1" wide white tape that was slightly stretchy. It went above the mylar strips. Is that the bowlus tape? Willing to try alternatives...always researching. Colors would be nice to find too!
Sounds like it. White only IIRC, slightly stretchy, and W&W would certainly carry it. I think you can get 2" as well. As others have said, it's not "permanent", but it seems to last 2 years on my CT (wings have to come off every other annual) where I use it for wing root taping.

TODR
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  #16  
Old 07-06-2012, 01:41 AM
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rvmills rvmills is offline
 
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Location: Georgetown, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrik View Post
The Bowlus type tape is fairly stretchy, so it's easy to get around corners, but it does come off when you stretch it too much, it might split, it's certainly not permanent. But for things like taping the wing-fuselage transition on a glider it's perfect. Think vinyl electrical tape.

The mylar tape on my control surfaces is held in place with double sided tape, and then the Tesa 4104 is put over the leading edge of the mylar to make that transition smoother. The Tesa is not supposed to hold the mylar in place. Again, my only experience is with gliders, and the vne in mine is 100 kts (low for a modern glider, but my glider is older than I am ...), so I can't comment on 180 kts performance. But I've only seen the mylar tapes come off when they were a few years old. I also suspect the Tesa 4104 alone will stay on at 180 kts, since it has good adhesion and is very thin (< 3 thou).

BTW, I've had 4104 strips along the leading edge of my wings for ~60 hours now, and they show no signs of weakness yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_other_dougreeves View Post
Sounds like it. White only IIRC, slightly stretchy, and W&W would certainly carry it. I think you can get 2" as well. As others have said, it's not "permanent", but it seems to last 2 years on my CT (wings have to come off every other annual) where I use it for wing root taping.

TODR
Thanks guys. Spent some more time ont he W&W site refreshing my memory, and when I tested the mylar system, I did use the gray teflon tape underneath (for rub resistance), the double-sided tape under the mylar leading edge, and the white TESA tape over the leading edge, as a smoother/sealer. It is very high quality stuff.

I first ran into trouble with the rudder seal, beacuse it didn't fit or seal well at the the area where the tail fairing closes the gap between the VS (above the HS) and the aft fuselage below the HS (on my plane, those two inspection panels just under the HS and Elevator). I figured it just separated there, and peeled off...and my chase confirmed it on the second test (I'm a slow learner...had to try it twi$e!)

The upper elevator-to-HS gap also peeled away, though at a higher speed than the rudder. Only the lower elevator-to-HS mylar gap seal stayed put.

I did everything per instructions...except...I did not use the inner sealing tape (the one inside the gap area itself). Perhaps that's part of what caused the failure. Here's a pic, credit to the Wings and Wheels site:



I decided to just seal the openings at the elevator and rudder hinge, though I did note that Mark Frederick used the leftover W&W mylar that I gave him to span just across those elevator openings...hmmmm.

On the W&W site, I see no mention of Bowlus, but they do have a couple new products...the USA Vinyl tape (which sounds like 471 but is much cheaper) and the W&W White Poly tape. Both only in white, as you said. Might try a roll of that USA Vinyl just to compare it to 471.

Also interested in the turbulator tape. I see some fast glass planes with it at Reno, installed in strategic locations.

Fun to experiment, but I think Stephen's original post in on the mark...tape does make a difference!

Cheers,
Bob
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Bob Mills
RV-S6 "Rocket Six" N49VM
Cross Country-Marshall Field (07TS)
Georgetown, TX
President/Sport 49, Sport Class Air Racing
Trustee, Formation Flying Inc (FFI)

Last edited by rvmills : 07-06-2012 at 01:46 AM.
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  #17  
Old 07-06-2012, 06:54 AM
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logansc logansc is offline
 
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Pardon me for butting in, but I understand that on RV's and Rockets it's not wise to seal the ailerons. As I understand it, an open aileron gap is necessary for proper control surface airflow and proper functioning---correct?


Lee...
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  #18  
Old 07-07-2012, 10:43 AM
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rvmills rvmills is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logansc View Post
Pardon me for butting in, but I understand that on RV's and Rockets it's not wise to seal the ailerons. As I understand it, an open aileron gap is necessary for proper control surface airflow and proper functioning---correct?


Lee...
Lee,

You're not butting in at all...and you make a great point. I've been told the same thing, and have never sealed the ailerons for that very reason. I have no evidence other than the stories of those that tried it, and found the aircraft very hard to control.

The picture above (of the W&W taping system) looks like a generic control surface, so one might think it could work for an RV aileron...but Lee's right...conventional wisdom and field experience (from word of mouth) says don't tape the aileron gaps.

I do have aileron hinge bolt fairings, but those don't fill any of the gap between the wing and the ailerons. Not sure I can measure a difference in speed with those...figure it's one of those small incremental bits of speed (that's the hope anyway!)

Cheers,
Bob
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RV-S6 "Rocket Six" N49VM
Cross Country-Marshall Field (07TS)
Georgetown, TX
President/Sport 49, Sport Class Air Racing
Trustee, Formation Flying Inc (FFI)
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  #19  
Old 07-07-2012, 09:01 PM
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hydroguy2 hydroguy2 is offline
 
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Stephen taped up his Beautiful RV-7 last night. (not the ailerons) and flew it to a RV gold 1st place today 223.4mph in the Big Sky Air Race. Then flew home to seattle in <3hrs....... Nice Job Stephen!
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  #20  
Old 07-12-2012, 04:50 PM
N999BT N999BT is offline
 
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Posts: 217
Default TAPE

I think tape makes me go faster, but at BSAR the rain shower really tore it up. There was lots of shreds hanging out in the wind when I finished.

BTW I think Stephen needs more stuff taped.
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