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  #51  
Old 12-25-2011, 03:09 PM
Finley Atherton Finley Atherton is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: AUSTRALIA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvi767 View Post
I did some engine out work yesterday also. I could land from my normal pattern position. I had to keep the flaps up until short final. They really make a difference on the 6. I left the prop as set at 2700 RPM. I am hoping this offsets the effects of a actual stopped engine. In the real world of course you would get the prop control out for minimum drag. I wonder if anyone has some data on that point. Engine at idle verses a actual shutdown verses prop setting on a CS equipped aircraft.

George

On my aircraft at least, I have found that I can closely simulate the real dead engine/prop full coarse sink rate with the throttle at idle and the prop to full coarse then in 1 1/4 turns.

Fin
9A

Last edited by Finley Atherton : 12-25-2011 at 03:34 PM.
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  #52  
Old 12-25-2011, 03:58 PM
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MauiLvrs MauiLvrs is offline
 
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Posts: 643
Exclamation

The only way to really practice it... is to turn off the engine....

Engine failure on take off.... land straight ahead...
Or in most cases die trying
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  #53  
Old 12-25-2011, 04:06 PM
sailvi767 sailvi767 is offline
 
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Location: Charlotte NC
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It has been suggested on this forum and others to actually practice with the mixture pulled. I considered it but so far have not gone to that extreme. I think you can get the practice you need and keep the engine running.

George
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  #54  
Old 12-25-2011, 04:28 PM
gereed75 gereed75 is offline
 
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Location: pittsburgh pa
Posts: 554
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I have done a fair amount of actual engine out practice in my IO-360 RV-6 with a WW200RV C/S prop.

I have found that the engine out, prop windmilling at full increase sink rate to be about 1100 FPM at 80 KIAS. Sink rate decreases about 20% with prop to full decrease to slightly less than than 1000FPM. Full throttle or idle throttle does not make much practical difference.

For practice purposes, I find that I can replicate this sink rate with engine to idle and just a "notch" of flaps. That is what I use for "engine out" practice. I use the military method - High Key, Low key ELP pattern

1500' AGL works well for a High Key position with about 30 degrees AOB bringing you to a nice 900' AGL low key about 2000' from the runway. Depending on wind, flaps down full when the field is made somewhere around rolling final.

I ease into a flair with 60 - 70 KIAS and about 40' AGL. With power off, you don't float much and you get one chance at getting the descent stopped for a smooth landing.

Practice practice practice. It is no big deal to pull the red knob to ICO at altitude and play around (over a safe landing spot) for practice. You will learn alot!!!
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Last edited by gereed75 : 12-25-2011 at 04:30 PM.
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  #55  
Old 12-25-2011, 04:39 PM
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DanBaier DanBaier is offline
 
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Location: Rochester NY
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Originally Posted by sailvi767 View Post
I think you can get the practice you need and keep the engine running.
I remember the first engine failure I had - the thing that was the most startling was how much faster the aircraft was coming down than in all of the engine-out practice.

I am NOT advocating shutting down the engine to practice; rather, be ready for a bit of a surprise.

Dan
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  #56  
Old 12-25-2011, 04:59 PM
B25Flyer B25Flyer is offline
 
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I was leisurely digesting my Christmas Dinner, surfing VAF, and "what to my wondering eyes should appear......" Another Turnback thread.... OMG

Those who know me can imagine my indigestion...

Nothing seems to change.... Every few months I read about another SSCBD accident after a turn-back after take-off...

The AOPA did a terrible disservice to General Aviation with their articles this summer... I know for a fact that there was disagreement internally about the things they have published on the subject this summer...

I also realize this thread was started to gather data, but for what purpose.... If you believe you have the skills to consider a turnback when the unthinkable happens to you, the you have the skill set to collect your own data on your own airplane. If that is beyond your skill set, then a turnback from an EFATO should not be in your toolkit...

The most recent post that says pulling the mixture at altitude is going too far??? If pulling the mixture 4000 ft above a 4000 ft runway increases your heart rate even 1 bpm, then the turnback from an EFATO is not for you....

Long term readers of this forum know that I have never said it is impossible. What I have said, and continue to repeat, is this..

When it happens for real, there are so many variables that must be considered that make it impossible to have a cookbook go-no/go decision. That combined with the shot of adrenaline that comes with the emergency turns the brain to mush.... The statistics bear this out...

The default response to an EFATO needs to be, "lower the nose and pick a point ahead of the wings, into the wind, and land at the slowest possible airspeed." Airplanes that arrive at the earth, wings level, under control, at minimum airspeed, have survivors onboard...

There is an attorney in Des Moines IA, Tom Drew, who coined a phrase that I call "Drew's Law" Tom says that "80% of the pilots believe they are in the top 20%..."

To that I add a corollary, "The reality is that half of us are below average." (the median actually for the statisticians, but that's a detail)

Pulling off a turnback from an EFATO is a maneuver that requires the skills found a group much smaller than the top 20%.

Trying would be fine if failure did not result in almost certain death for all aboard....

Everyone have a wonderful Christmas, and I will go find a roll of Tums....

HO HO HO
Doug Rozendaal
F1 EVO
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  #57  
Old 12-25-2011, 07:08 PM
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n5lp n5lp is offline
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Location: Carlsbad, NM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B25Flyer View Post
I was leisurely digesting my Christmas Dinner, surfing VAF, and "what to my wondering eyes should appear......" Another Turnback thread.... OMG

Those who know me can imagine my indigestion...
Thank you Doug.

For any newcomers, Doug has experience that puts him in the top part of the top one percent in piloting skills and he thinks even thinking about the turnback at a low altitude is a really bad idea. It astounds me how many people think they could pull this deal off for real.
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  #58  
Old 12-25-2011, 11:23 PM
the_other_dougreeves the_other_dougreeves is offline
 
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Location: Dallas, TX (ADS)
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Hearing and feeling the instructor pull the glider tow rope release at 250 feet is educational and leads to (for me, anyway) the most challenging, exciting and rewarding 30 seconds of flight. Seeing how students react to it is similarly educational. The ratio of simulated to actual rope breaks is probably well over 50:1. However, we practice them because it is important - if you don't practice it and it happens, your chances of success are low. That's why we practice it so much.

The average PP-G student will get 4-5 of these in the course of their training and more if (1) they fail to brief the instructor on their decision altitudes (i.e., 180 and land downwind above 200', abbreviated pattern at 500') or (2) they fail to call passing their decision altitudes (easiest way to get one from an instructor). Club policy is for PIC to brief on what will happen if they loose the tow plane on every takeoff, and that plan should reflect the actual winds, surrounding environment and field operations.

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but if you don't think about what your options are on this flight, and you don't practice, your chances of success are low.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled Christmas.

TODR
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Last edited by the_other_dougreeves : 12-25-2011 at 11:27 PM.
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  #59  
Old 12-26-2011, 06:02 AM
hendrik hendrik is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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I fly gliders and had my share in simulated and real rope breaks. Like Doug says, it's important to have a plan for this flight, before the flight.

Anyway, I got a question for you guys. Several people mentioned that in a cross-wind situation they first turn into wind. Why? I was taught to plan the final turn into wind in order to have more time on base/final without the danger of overshooting the centerline with the tailwind, then banking steeper to correct for it and stall. This means my first turn usually is with the wind (all other factors like trees, power lines, other fields or runways, etc. aside). Now I'd like to understand the reasoning behind turning into wind. So to all who advocate this: Can you please explain me the logic behind it?
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  #60  
Old 12-26-2011, 07:56 AM
Sig600 Sig600 is offline
 
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Location: KRTS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBaier View Post
I remember the first engine failure I had - the thing that was the most startling was how much faster the aircraft was coming down than in all of the engine-out practice.

I am NOT advocating shutting down the engine to practice; rather, be ready for a bit of a surprise.

Dan
A good piece of knowledge to have is at what speed your prop will stop windmilling. That will give you solid knowledge of how your plane will perform in a dead stick situation. How you figure that out is on you! (I did it by climbing to altitude, pulling the mixture, and slowing until the prop stopped. The difference in glide behavior is SIGNIFICANT regardless of make/model.)

I say this because when I was doing a lot of multi engine instruction, the standard was to set a "Zero thrust" rpm on the simulated dead engine. What caugh a lot of students off gaurd in the early hours of training was the significant increas in float during the landing flare, and their landing distance from the lack of drag of that one engine. In a single engine airplane if you need to stick the landing on a short field, this is good info to have ahead of time.
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