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  #11  
Old 12-24-2011, 06:59 PM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strahler13 View Post
I have flown both and a lot with a "push pull" throttle--not necessairily a vernier as there is no center "lock" button. I like the push pull best as you can use the base and the prop knob as anchors for the rest of your hand. With a throttle quadrant, I feel less precise, as if your elbow is flying all over the place, and there is no real "anchor". I think the disqualification of the push pull has no merit. Can someone please give a valid reason for the disqualification, as I have yet to see valid reasoning regarding this.
Mark, the term "Vernier" refers to the twist-to-advance-or-retard throttles, that also have pushbuttons for fast motion. Because of the pushbutton they are sometimes referred to as "locking" throttles. They are discouraged for new formation pilots because of the extra workload in holding the button in to keep it possible to make fast motions when needed... A new pilot may not be able to pull the power fast enough (or add it fast enough) when needed.
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  #12  
Old 12-24-2011, 07:35 PM
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strahler13 strahler13 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
Mark, the term "Vernier" refers to the twist-to-advance-or-retard throttles, that also have pushbuttons for fast motion. Because of the pushbutton they are sometimes referred to as "locking" throttles. They are discouraged for new formation pilots because of the extra workload in holding the button in to keep it possible to make fast motions when needed... A new pilot may not be able to pull the power fast enough (or add it fast enough) when needed.
Thanks Rob, however, I have heard that for the formation groups, you must have the side or center mounted "throttle quadrant" type. That was the direction of my comment.

Mark
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  #13  
Old 12-24-2011, 07:43 PM
RV8R999 RV8R999 is offline
 
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The prohibition of verniers for new formation pilots is an excellent rule. New form pilots will absolutely over modulate the throttle because they have not learned to predict the changes in relative motion and to discern those changes early enough to avoid having to add/subtract large amounts of throttle very quickly. Even the slightest hesitation in throttle application when first learning is going to cause greater positional errors which amps up the workload significantly often resulting in even greater positional errors - and so on. The newbie is already trying to contain a self-induced helmut fire so he/she doesn't need any extra heat.

Absolutely once the pilot learns to quickly discern subtle changes in relative motion and can anticipate the needed power changes, any kind of throttle will work fine.

Good rule!!!
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  #14  
Old 12-24-2011, 10:29 PM
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rvmills rvmills is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strahler13 View Post
...snip> I like the push pull best as you can use the base and the prop knob as anchors for the rest of your hand. With a throttle quadrant, I feel less precise, as if your elbow is flying all over the place, and there is no real "anchor". I think the disqualification of the push pull has no merit. Can someone please give a valid reason for the disqualification, as I have yet to see valid reasoning regarding this.

Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by strahler13 View Post
Thanks Rob, however, I have heard that for the formation groups, you must have the side or center mounted "throttle quadrant" type. That was the direction of my comment.

Mark
Mark,

The clinics that I've been involved with, and the other clinics that train to FFI standards that I'm aware of, only prohibit verniers. I've not seen a quadrant requirement...'course that doesn't mean it doens't exist somewhere. Push-pull throttles are fine in our group...that's what I have as well.

Your point on having an anchor is spot on, and there's a similar discussion going on here in the thread Kahuna split off to discuss verniers and formation ops.

The push pull provides a great anchor (as you know) with the palm on the knob and the index finger on the friction lock, or the panel, or something similar (whatever technique works best to keep it all in the fingers and wrist).

In a tandem/centerline seat (3/4/8/Rocket) with a quadrant, I find my most comfortable position is with my fingertips around the vertical part of the throttle, and my thumb on the cross of the T-handle. Much of the movement is just between thumb and index finger, and the side of the palm (under the pinky) is the anchor. Similar can be done with the right hand on a side-by-side (SBS) with a quadrant, but care is needed not to bump the prop and mixture levers (just depends on how its set up and how well you can anchor). I do prefer the push-pull on a SBS.

Just one knucklehead's technique(s).

I'd like to give it a try with a tandem with a Fatboy throttle sometime, just to see how it feels!

Bottom line: in all the clinics I know about, you're good to go!

Cheers,
Bob
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  #15  
Old 12-24-2011, 10:52 PM
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rvmills rvmills is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Lee View Post
...snip> But I do fly with less than full throttle (fixed pitch prop...typical cruise RPM 2550 -2600).
Ah, that makes sense Ron. A FP prop is likely going to take more small throttle manipulation in various phases of a cruise-type flight, just to keep the RPM constant, or at the desired state. Not always, but the fine tuning there makes sense. And I found it nice in a Bo as well (flew a corporate-owned Bo for a bit a while back...no formation there tho ). It's a nice piece of gear in the right circumstances, the right mission, as Bubblehead said (just IMHO).

I think Kahuna hit the nail square here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahuna View Post
The more maneuvering you do, the more it comes into play. In an RV formation evaluation, with 60deg of bank and 45deg of pitch required, the vernier becomes a hindrence to precision quickly. If your doing figure 8's over Osh in Bonanzas or RV's, well it can certainly be done, and done safely by experienced pilots.

In a clinic environment, where newbees come to play and learn, the vernier is a real hindrence to the learning curve and compromises safety. We found this on many occasions years ago and banned em in the RV clinincs many of us attend.

So, can it be done? of course. But when your trying to lower risk, improve safety, and allow the learning curve of a new pilot in an RV to take place, the vernier throttle has no place in RV formation training.
As maneuvering gets more dynamic, instant response is needed. Kahuna and Team RV are the experts there, to be sure! In a training environment, if I was a safety pilot or an instructor in the plane, I'd want to know the student could make corrections no matter how sweaty the palms and fingers get (and they do), and I'd want to be able to help if needed with no hinderence. Same goes as lead...knowing there are no mechanical things in the way when 20 feet apart (or less) and closing is good...whichever side of the formation you are on!

Cheers,
Bob
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  #16  
Old 12-25-2011, 05:16 AM
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plehrke plehrke is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Lee View Post
But I do fly with less than full throttle (fixed pitch prop...typical cruise RPM 2550 -2600).
.
.
.
. . . if I had my choice I would probably go non-vernier throttle and vernier mixture. Can't say if that would be a majority opinion.
Fixed pitched prop and like my vernier throttle. Really helps dial in the RPM and cruise power.
I do think the next plane will have the non-vernier just because I would probably go constant speed prop and then think the vernier does not have the advantages.
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  #17  
Old 12-25-2011, 06:51 AM
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ronschreck ronschreck is offline
 
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Default Another option

Here's the setup that I prefer. Since I do lots of formation and acro the quadrant mounted throttle with a wrist rest makes big or small throttle adjustments easily. The vernier controls on prop and mixture are out of the way of the throttle and unlikely to be used while in formation or doing acro yet they are great for fine tuning the prop and setting mixture LOP. FWIW, this is the setup you will likely see on many dedicated aerobatic mounts like the MX-2 and Edge-540.

This is MY preferred setup. If you like YOUR vernier throttle, well that's OK too.


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  #18  
Old 12-25-2011, 12:02 PM
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Kahuna Kahuna is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strahler13 View Post
Thanks Rob, however, I have heard that for the formation groups, you must have the side or center mounted "throttle quadrant" type. That was the direction of my comment.

Mark
Mark, what bob said. There have been no bans on the use of friction throttles in rv clinics nor has there been a preferred friction vs quadrant. This issue is the twisting push button vernier throttles. A friction locking push pull is absolutely no problem at all.
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  #19  
Old 12-25-2011, 12:21 PM
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Jamie Jamie is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strahler13 View Post
Thanks Rob, however, I have heard that for the formation groups, you must have the side or center mounted "throttle quadrant" type. That was the direction of my comment.
I've heard this too but when you did a little deeper it seems to be peoples' confusion about what a venier throttle actually is. Some people believe that a standard push-pull throttle with a friction lock is vernier.
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  #20  
Old 01-01-2012, 07:04 PM
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rvmills rvmills is offline
 
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Smokey,

Been meaning to compliment you on that engine control set-up. I haven't seen that before, and after recently ferrying a Rocket for a friend, and fiddling with the standard red lever while leaning (and jones-ing for my vernier mixture), I really like what you have there. I'm sure the standard quadrant mixture becomes simple to lean with as well with use, but I like your concept a lot! Best of both worlds!

Two quick questions:

- Any pics of the wrist rest? Sounds like a great idea too.

- What, do tell, is the purpose of the q-tip in Scheck's ear (or is his ear just your q-tip holder)?

Happy New Year!

Cheers,
Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronschreck View Post
Here's the setup that I prefer. Since I do lots of formation and acro the quadrant mounted throttle with a wrist rest makes big or small throttle adjustments easily. The vernier controls on prop and mixture are out of the way of the throttle and unlikely to be used while in formation or doing acro yet they are great for fine tuning the prop and setting mixture LOP. FWIW, this is the setup you will likely see on many dedicated aerobatic mounts like the MX-2 and Edge-540.

This is MY preferred setup. If you like YOUR vernier throttle, well that's OK too.


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