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  #91  
Old 08-23-2016, 04:04 PM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavafa View Post
...at what point do we take their word for it...
They linked the 3M document. Even if they didn't, it is still the builder's responsibility to do the homework before choosing a material.

Quote:
I will run some test with the torch to see how it will do and if better, replace my FW insulation with FIBERFRAX.
Not suitable for the cabin side. The binder (glue which holds the individual fibers together in the form of felt) will burn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jthocker View Post
Wow! Can you say thread drift!
Thanks for joining us Jon. You're right; let's return to inspection. You're a well-respected fellow. Do you take a hard look at "firewall insulation" when you do a prebuy?
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Last edited by DanH : 08-23-2016 at 04:28 PM.
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  #92  
Old 08-23-2016, 04:28 PM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthocker View Post
Wow! Can you say thread drift!
I thought the purpose of this thread is to learn about potential issues and pre-buy inspections. I sure have learned from my discussion with Dan

Thank you Dan for providing invaluable feedback.
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  #93  
Old 08-23-2016, 04:47 PM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
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Yes, the thread drift is not what I intended. Let's try to stick to checking the various construction errors and not so much a discussion of "accessories."

Dan does raise some good discussion topics. I think another thread is warranted. But I do agree with the post regarding not having DAR's making those decisions.

As I have stated many times on this forum, I view my responsibility during the initial Airworthiness Inspection as an extremely through preflight. After I leave the airplane should be ready for that first flight after all of the cowlings and fairings get put back in. The chances of having a catastrophic failure should be very remote ( I am not saying never). I verify the aircraft is assembled properly, the controls work properly, and the engine has been run with the fuel flow tested.

With first flights taking place directly over the airport, an emergency landing if needed should be able to happen in very short order, and under control. One of the best advances to help make this happen is the Additional Pilot Program. Don't hesitate to use it!

Vic
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  #94  
Old 08-23-2016, 04:48 PM
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RVbySDI RVbySDI is offline
 
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Chris,
From what I am reading from this discussion, talking about the DAR inspection is not necessarily the point that I sense Dan is making. True the firewall insulation material could be an issue evaluated at that point. However, I was taking from Dan's comments the notion that he was concerned about knowledgeable inspectors who were evaluating airplanes for a pre-buy and/or conditional inspections not catching bad insulation materials when evaluating an airplane in a resale situation or one in which the pilot is not the builder. In this scenario the inspector is providing a conditional inspection for said non-builder.
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  #95  
Old 08-23-2016, 05:03 PM
YellowJacket RV9 YellowJacket RV9 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVbySDI View Post
Chris,
From what I am reading from this discussion, talking about the DAR inspection is not necessarily the point that I sense Dan is making. True the firewall insulation material could be an issue evaluated at that point. However, I was taking from Dan's comments the notion that he was concerned about knowledgeable inspectors who were evaluating airplanes for a pre-buy and/or conditional inspections not catching bad insulation materials when evaluating an airplane in a resale situation or one in which the pilot is not the builder. In this scenario the inspector is providing a conditional inspection for said non-builder.
Yes I accidentally deleted my post, but I agree that people doing pre-buys should bring up these types of issues and educate the buyer and builder. My concern was making this the job of DAR's, which I don't believe it is.

Vic did what I thought was an excellent airworthiness inspection for me - he checked all the critical areas, and also offered a few suggestions as well to improve things, all of which were appreciated.

Chris
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  #96  
Old 08-23-2016, 05:39 PM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic syracuse View Post
Let's try to stick to checking the various construction errors and not so much a discussion of "accessories."
Come on Vic, we're not talking about a bad radio. We are talking about a construction error, the kind that has resulted in death, so humor me, and answer this question, please.

You're doing a prebuy, the subject of this thread. Do you include a close look at the material on the cabin side of the firewall?
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Last edited by DanH : 08-23-2016 at 05:42 PM.
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  #97  
Old 08-23-2016, 05:55 PM
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jthocker jthocker is offline
 
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Default Pre buys

Dan,

I don't advertise that I do pre buys( I think)! After doing 3, for friends, and then finding serious deficiencies in each case, I believe I will stop, especially if I have to worry about firewall insulation!😱
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  #98  
Old 08-25-2016, 09:13 AM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Some off-line insulation discussions suggest the key issue is awareness.

A DAR can be unhappy with an insulation choice, but may have serious difficulty denying an airworthiness certificate on an authority basis. I say "may", because they don't all report to the same FSDO supervisor, and well, we all know how that can be. There is no common knowledge to back him up.

An A&P doing a condition inspection has a similar problem, and to be practical, he also has a business problem. The A&P who wants a bad insulation choice removed can rapidly find himself alone. Plenty of other A&P's will sign it off.

Condition inspections are a little easier in one respect; buyers hire an inspector for an opinion, and in general, they value that inspector's opinion or they would not have hired him. However, it's not universal; plenty of prebuys get hired without a personal relationship. There is also a seller problem. The seller is often the builder, and he thinks his insulation approach was safe, and his mechanic never said anything about it, so why is the prebuy guy making a big deal out of it?

Now consider: None of these inspectors would have a problem if awareness was as universal as the need for edge distance, or the problems with old slosh compound in fuel tanks.

Yeah, we need to work on awareness.

How bad is the actual problem? Take the time to read through the very recent thread linked below.

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=141016

Research is not hard. Most products have technical bulletins, if folks will just read them. Most don't, and if they do, they don't bother to research the referenced test standards. Actually, it often not even that hard. Following a few links found a YouTube video of an RV-10 builder spraying the enclosed spaces under the forward floors entirely full of a urethane foam product...the same product another YouTube video demonstrates to be highly flammable. Apparently the builder's investigation of the product's suitability seems to have been reading the word "fire" on the front of the can.

It's a construction error. And it's dangerous. Let's stop it.

I'll start a new thread in the not distant future. Having raised some awareness, let's return this thread to tail attachment.
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Last edited by DanH : 08-25-2016 at 09:35 AM.
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  #99  
Old 02-16-2017, 07:49 PM
Mlidzct Mlidzct is offline
 
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Default Questionable attachment

Thanks to this thread I made sure to check this area on a project airplane I looked at today. Here are some pics. This makes me wonder about all the critical areas that cant be seen.









Last edited by Mlidzct : 02-16-2017 at 07:55 PM.
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  #100  
Old 02-16-2017, 08:02 PM
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acam37 acam37 is offline
 
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I went with 1"x1" angle on my RV-4 project to prevent the bolt edge distance issues. Plus I was very very careful when drilling those holes. The 3/4" angle gives you zero room for error
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