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Whiskey compass required with EFIS?

F

foka4

Well Known Member
Is a whiskey compass required when you have an EFIS? What if the EFIS doesn't have a magnetometer (i.e., TruTrak)?

Thanks,

Matthew
 
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What EFIS? The regs simply require a "Magnetic Direction Indicator" or something like that.

Many of the EFIS's (EFII?) have this built in (Dynon, GRT, etc), so no whiskey compass is required, regardless of the type of flight (Day, night, IFR, etc.). However, it is up to you to design and fly with whatever you are comfortable with.

PS. Try the "search" button, this is a very common question.
 
Required Equipment

I think the FARs list a compass as required equipment for VFR and IFR flight. My mission is IFR cross country, but based on my understanding of the regs, a compass is required equipment even for a NORDO day VFR cruiser.

The TruTrak EFIS system does not need (nor use) a magnetometer for orientation in flight, so any indication of direction is based on ground track rather than compass heading. (Any discussion on the efficaciousness of such a setup is probably better posted in the "never-ending debates" section of this forum.)

So, it would seem a whiskey compass (or other heading indicating device capable of displaying magnetic heading) is required when using the TruTrak EFIS.

M
 
EFIS and compass

I searched around on this one and didn't find anything. If anyone is familiar with a thread that addresses this question definitively, please post a link or send me a PM.

Thanks,

Matthew
 
N941WR said:
Matthew,

Try reading this thread:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=42518&highlight=magnetic+instrument

Again, a "Magnetic direction indicator" is all that is required not a whiskey compass. Heck, it is my understanding that some of the more advance airliners don't even have a shiskey compass any more.
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Thanks. Actually, I should have been a little more specific. I saw a thread or two pertaining to the Dynon, but it has a magnetometer. I haven't seen a thread in this forum indicating whether a TruTrak-equipped aircraft needs a compass.

My best guess is that a separate compass (magnetic direction indicator) is required for flying IFR with a TruTrak EFIS. If I find out anything more, I'll be sure to inform this thread.

M
 
The fact of the matter is that is varies depending on some DAR's and some FSDO's. I think many FSDO's have settled on the fact taht a Whisky Compass is required, but I still hear now and again that some DAR's do not. So, right now at least, there is no hard and fast answer.

My 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein

PS, Bill...which airliners do not have compasses in them? Personal curiosity! I figured the 787 and the new Sparky's (Airbus) are some of the most advanced out there....and they have a whisky compass in 'em.
 
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This has been discussed at length at our DAR seminars. The regs require a "magnetic direction indicator" for 91.205 operations. For experimental amateur-built that means at night and/or IFR. The Dynon magnetometer meets this requirement. For daytime VFR nothing is required.
A "course direction indicator" does not meet this regulation. i.e. A magnetic direction indicator will indicate a direction without movement of the aircraft. A course direction indicator will not.
Some DARs may require a whiskey compass. That is their prerogative. An inspector may require more than the regs call for in the name of safety.
 
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Ask your D.A.R.

I put a wet compass in my panel because my D.A.R. said it was required despite the fact that I have a remote magnatometer with my Dynon EFIS which seems to be very accurate. I did not enter a debate with him about this. The compass is extremely erratic and totally unreliable. That's why I have it way over on the right side of the panel.:)
 
Mel - are you kidding me? A DAR can require something that is not required through regulation simply because He/she thinks it is safer? I think I'd have to challenge any DAR directly on that count. Don't they have to inspect to some standard not opinion, especially in this case in which the FAR's are specific enough?

Ken
 
They don't even have real whiskey in them!

I stuck a whiskey compass on my glare shield with double sided tape and removed it as soon as the DAR was out of sight. The GRT magnetometer works just fine and the GPS course indicator is close enough to use in the unlikely event of magnetometer failure, and it is certainly more accurate/useable than a whiskey compass.
 
Not Kidding!

RV8R999 said:
Mel - are you kidding me? A DAR can require something that is not required through regulation simply because He/she thinks it is safer? I think I'd have to challenge any DAR directly on that count. Don't they have to inspect to some standard not opinion, especially in this case in which the FAR's are specific enough?
Ken
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A DAR or FAA ASI can require anything he wants. Of course if he get very far out of line, he will stop receiving applications. Believe me, word gets around fast.

One example; Typically when I do a pressurized aircraft, the cabin pressurization tests have not been done. In this case I will issue Phase I only and require another inspection after the interior has been done and the pressure vessel has been properly tested. The reason for this is that an upholstery screw can totally destroy the integrity of the pressure vessel.

Another example: I require flexible FWF fuel lines to be fire-sleeved. The regulations for experimental aircraft do not require this, but I consider it a "safety of flight" issue.
 
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ronschreck said:
I stuck a whiskey compass on my glare shield with double sided tape and removed it as soon as the DAR was out of sight. The GRT magnetometer works just fine and the GPS course indicator is close enough to use in the unlikely event of magnetometer failure, and it is certainly more accurate/useable than a whiskey compass.
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My RV-6 had an automotive compass suction-cupped to the windscreen (just) for it's inspection (1999)......... ;)

The RMI uEncoder magnetometer was the real magnetic indicator (probably looked at it no more than a couple of times before it was removed a few years later).
 
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YEP!

Sam Buchanan said:
My RV-6 had an automotive compass suction-cupped to the windscreen (just) for it's inspection (1999)......... ;)
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I've been there. As a matter of fact, my Moni Motorglider kit came with a $1.99 Wal-Mart compass, suction cup and all.
 
ronschreck said:
I stuck a whiskey compass on my glare shield with double sided tape and removed it as soon as the DAR was out of sight. The GRT magnetometer works just fine and the GPS course indicator is close enough to use in the unlikely event of magnetometer failure, and it is certainly more accurate/useable than a whiskey compass.
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Velcro for me Ron. I have since passed the compass on to Doug Reeves for use in his RV-3.
 
SteinAir said:
PS, Bill...which airliners do not have compasses in them? Personal curiosity! I figured the 787 and the new Sparky's (Airbus) are some of the most advanced out there....and they have a whisky compass in 'em.
Click to expand...

Don't know about any airliners on that, but Gulfstreams from G4 and up have DMDI's and no whiskey compass.
Don
 
Mel - do you, or would you, provide your personal requirements ahead of the inspection if the builder asked you in an attempt to avoid a denial of the airworthiness certificate? Do you think most DARs would be willing to do so?

I guess I wouldn't have a problem with a non-req fire-sleeve requirement as long as I knew it was expected and had time to install them prior to the inspection (although I planned on doing this anyway - this weekend in fact). This seems like a reasonable working relationship between builder and DAR. However, if the DAR shows up and says, "surprise, you should have installed a ballistic parachute cause I personally feel this is a safety of flight requirement" I might rather abruptly show him the way out of my hangar :)
 
RV8R999 said:
Mel - do you, or would you, provide your personal requirements ahead of the inspection if the builder asked you in an attempt to avoid a denial of the airworthiness certificate? Do you think most DARs would be willing to do so?

I guess I wouldn't have a problem with a non-req fire-sleeve requirement as long as I knew it was expected and had time to install them prior to the inspection (although I planned on doing this anyway - this weekend in fact). This seems like a reasonable working relationship between builder and DAR. However, if the DAR shows up and says, "surprise, you should have installed a ballistic parachute cause I personally feel this is a safety of flight requirement" I might rather abruptly show him the way out of my hangar :)
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Yes. I have no problem making my requirements known prior to inspection. There are very few things that I "add", like the firesleeve. And if the DAR is uncooperative, I sincerely believe that he will not receive many calls.

I've been doing this for over 10 years and only had one person who didn't want to install firesleeve. After discussing the matter, I finally convinced him that it really should be there.

BTW, firesleeve IS required on all part 23 aircraft.
 
Mel said:
Yes. I have no problem making my requirements known prior to inspection. There are very few things that I "add", like the firesleeve. And if the DAR is uncooperative, I sincerely believe that he will not receive many calls.

I've been doing this for over 10 years and only had one person who didn't want to install firesleeve. After discussing the matter, I finally convinced him that it really should be there.

BTW, firesleeve IS required on all part 23 aircraft.
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Mel,

I think your requirement is more than reasonable.

When doing my 40 hour phase, my plane had four engine stoppages and it took me a while to figure out why. When I installed the 180* elbow out of aluminum fuel line to go from the gascolator to the fuel flow monitor I didn't think to insulate it with fire sleeve.

What I found was that when practicing slow flight or during a long glide, such as on long final, enough heat built up in the engine compartment to boil the fuel in that line.

After insulating the elbow I could not replicate the problem and have had no problems since.

Here is a picture of the line without insulated.
 
Just to give an Australian point of view, this is what we need. Minimums.

CAO 28.18 appendix 1 ( Casa )

1) Airspeed indicator
2) Altimeter
3) A direct reading compass OR a remote compass ( Efis ) AND a backup direct reading compass
4) clock

I have dual skyviews with backup batteries and I will still need a whiskey compass in Australia.
 
About Mel...

My Experimental is a composite bird, and Mel is the only DAR i have any experience with, but with those caveats; When Mel arrived I had NO doubt or question as to what he would require. He had paperwork, (he sent me copies before hand) he gave me a checklist of things to have ready, and what he would check. He did ding me on the nylock nuts that secure the door hinges not showing enough thread, (I had recently removed the doors and neglected to re-tighten) But with the communication before his inspection, I had no surprises, and this was not an RV, which is obviously his specialty.
I chose Mel as my DAR after discussing the process with a hangar mate that Mel had provided DAR services for his RV6. His reccomendations and impressions/recollections of the process were great references. I wanted a safe airplane to fly for the first time, or as safe as can be attained. Mel provided a reputation for sincere, and safety oriented inspections. I had no interest in "pencil whipping" my plane legal. I am sure there are DAR's out there like Mel, who may require something "extra" that have the same goals; safety, not just providing a power trip. I also suspect the Power Trips will be recognized and well known quickly. Ask your neighbors, and don't think you have to settle for less than what you want.

KB
 
randyintejas said:
Mel,
Will you travel to Tyler for an inspection? Of course I have to build it first!
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I would be happy to travel to Tyler for you inspection.
I do travel quite a bit. Just returned from Stillwater, OK last night. Two weeks ago it was Charlotte, NC and Las Cruces, NM. Keep me in the loop.

And tejasflyer, Thanks for the kind words.
 
To comment on the original question, it's been a while but back in the good 'ol days the 767 had a whisky compass with an up to date correction card (no one ever looked at either) and the DC9 fleet had a whisky compass in the bulkhead behind the F/O and it was viewed using a small mirror installed in the forward overhead panel.

Thank goodness, no check ride ever required use of the whisky compass but of course we could have done it, being otherwise qualified to walk on water. :)

All that to satisfy the regulations. Technically, it probably is required, or at least was, but today in an experimental it may not be all that much of a legal issue.
 
Mel said:
Yes. I have no problem making my requirements known prior to inspection. There are very few things that I "add", like the firesleeve. And if the DAR is uncooperative, I sincerely believe that he will not receive many calls.

I've been doing this for over 10 years and only had one person who didn't want to install firesleeve. After discussing the matter, I finally convinced him that it really should be there.

BTW, firesleeve IS required on all part 23 aircraft.
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Mel,

I have a friend completing a RV7 and the question of fire sleeve came up. It is my opinion fuel lines are fire sleeved by tradition and part 23, does that apply to oil lines as well? How about the small pressure sensing lines for fuel and oil?
 
Really, I think any flexible lines (including pressure lines) forward of the firewall that carry fuel or oil should be fire-sleeved.
 
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